Dutch Oil Finish

[NorthernJeff]

Hello all,

I am working with cherry on a small project, and was thinking about using Dutch oil as a finish instead of Arm-R-Seal polyurethane. Does anyone know if 1) Dutch oil is waterproof once set, and 2) does it change the coloring of the wood? Also, do you have to add a coat of polyurethane after treatment to ensure waterproofing? Thanks in advance for the advice.

Jeff

 

[CarvedTones]

I am not the expert, but...

"Dutch oil" is not a specific formulation. Most likely it is linseed + something that might make it more of a varnish and provide some water resistance.

It will change the color. I doubt it will change much, but it will turn a warm amber over time (sounds better than "finish will yellow as it ages" ).

Poly won't stick to it.

 

[Bas]

I've never heard of Dutch Oil (other than Shell...), and obviously this would be my favorite finish if it existed! Assuming it's similar to Danish Oil, as Andy said, it will add "an amber glow". You can topcoat it with polyurethane, provided the oil finish is fully cured. Danish oil is great for pieces that don't get too much wear, like boxes and magazine stands. For tables and shoe racks, poly is better. Neither of them are waterproof, although several layers of poly will add some water resistance.

To be honest, there is not too much point in using an oil/ varnish mixture like Danish Oil if you're going to topcoat it with poly. You might as well apply boiled linseed oil by itself, let it cure, and then topcoat with poly.

 

[CarvedTones]

OK, I stand corrected, maybe...

Bas, are you sure about poly over oil?

 

[Tom Dunn]

are you sure about poly over oil?

I put poly over Danish oil on a cherry chest I built, mostly just to try it myself. No problem, but I waited a good long time to be sure the oil had dried(cured?). Oil did a nice job of "bringing out the grain" in the wood, poly gave it a bit of toughness. Daughter I made it for is not especially known for taking great care of stuff, so oil alone was not gonna cut the mustard..................

 

[DaveO]

Danish "Dutch" Oil is a complete finish that is composed of oils (tung and/or linseed) a thinner (mineral spirits) and a varnish or polyurethane. You can make your own by combining the above ingredients in a equal 1 part ratio. It doesn't offer much protection due to it's thin nature, but is easily applied by wiping. It will give you more of the "in-the-wood" finish than a full film finish will. Any finish containing oils will add an ambering effect to the wood, and the more that is applied the darker the coloration will be. Polyurethane can be used over any oil finish as it is one.
There really isn't much point to using an oil before applying poly, you will get all the oil coloration from the oils in the poly.

MTCW,
Dave

 

[CarvedTones]

There's oil in poly? How do they make water based poly? I am glad I started with "I am no expert" because I am apparantly way off the mark on the poly. Finishes invented after the French Revolution are a weak area for me...

 

[DaveO]

Yes there is oil-based poly...with oils. And then there is water-based polys which are more acrylic. The name is like apple-ply, which sounds/infers like BB, but more friendly. Or Band-aids and adhesive strips :eusa_doh:


Dave

 

[DaveO]

Here's some words from Howie...

http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbth...07&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1


Dave

 

[Bas]

There's oil in poly? How do they make water based poly? I am glad I started with "I am no expert" because I am apparantly way off the mark on the poly. Finishes invented after the French Revolution are a weak area for me...

As Dave said, there is oil-based polyurethane, and water-based polyurethane, aka polycrylic. Both can be applied over Danish Oil, or boiled linseed oil, or oil-based stain. But the oil has to be completely cured, not just dry, in order to use the polycrylic. That can take a few days to a couple of weeks. Also, sand the piece before the first coat of poly, and sand in between coats. It's a lot of work, and time consuming (because the oil has to cure), but you get something that has the "popped grain" boiled linseed oil will give you, and a hard topcoat that won't yellow like oil-based poly. The hardest part is applying enough poly for protection, but not so much it looks like plastic. I'm still experimenting with that.

 

[cskipper]

FWIW, you can get Danish oil for Cherry and several other types of wood. I don't know what it looks like, but you can even get several flavors at the BORG.

 

[NorthernJeff]

Wow, great information guys. I am glad I asked before I tried Dutch Oil treatment. I think I will just stick with 5 coats of polyurethane. Thanks for the help. I will post pics when I have something done.

Jeff

 

[MrAudio815]

Hey Jeff,

Where did you get the term Dutch oil? Just curious.

And I have made a Maple Kitchen table that I used Boiled linseed oil on, a couple coats, couple days wait. And applied Rocklers WonderCote finish, they say it's ideal for furniture and and table tops. It worked great for my Table. My wife leaves wet condensation glasses on the table all the time and I have never had a problem with it ruining the finish/table.

The only problem I have had was when we had one of those candle warmers on the table, it made the maple turn a little dark in the spot, Arggh~!





Good Luck, Can't wait to see the pic's.

 

[cskipper]

Before this thread finishes I have a question about poly over Danish oil. I'm guessing that I'll know the oil is really dry when there is no longer any odor? Is there a specific type of poly to use?

 

[MrAudio815]

Before this thread finishes I have a question about poly over Danish oil. I'm guessing that I'll know the oil is really dry when there is no longer any odor? Is there a specific type of poly to use?

Not sure, But Rocklers Wondercote is a waterbased product and I used it over BLO. And it has held up for 4.5 years now. From Okinawa Japan, to North Carolina.

I think once the oil is dry, you should be fine as long as you sand like has been said before poly and throughout the layers.

But, I am still a newbie at all this. Just going off what has worked so far for me.

 

[CarvedTones]

I hope Howard chips in because I am confused by some posts here compared to the one DaveO linked to.

I would paraphrase some posts he made here to say that imparting color is the only reason to use more than one finish.

OK, I am done misquoting Howard, and will throw out a couple of more things based more on personal experience and possibly ill formed opinions...

"Oil" is a generic term that just becomes more vague every day. "Oil based stains" often have some volatile solvent that was processed from an oil and really don't leave any significant traces of anything other than pigment after a fairly short drying period. But people use MinWax stain and then a finish of their choosing and say it can be used over oil.

With all due respect to others, when you use a qualifier like "after oil dries" or "when oil is fully cured", you are speaking almost hypothetically. The drying oils (linseed, tung and walnut) do firm up acceptably, but they never really fully dry or cure. That is the main reason I am hesitant to use or recommend anything but shellac or wax over oil.

My point is, that if you want an oil finish, use oil. If you want a color change but not an oil finish, use the right shade of shellac or if you insist on more modern methods , stain it or dye it and then use the finish you like over that. That works and is simple enough for me to understand...

 

[Howard Acheson]

>>> There's oil in poly? How do they make water based poly?

There two entirely different products called "poly".

The first is an oil based "poly" varnish. All oil based varnish is made by mixing a resin like alkyd and a drying oil like linseed oil. The mixture is then heated until the two combine into a new compound called "varnish". The varnish is then thinned to allow it to be brushed. In the case of "poly", "poly varnish" or "urethane", a urethane resin is added to the mixture to improve abrasion resistance. Bottom line, "poly" is varnish plain and simple.

Waterborne finishes are much more complex. There are many chemicals in the formulation and the technology of how waterborne finishes are made and work is quite detailed. Suffice it to say the primary (and maybe only) resin is acrylic. The resin is mixed with other chemicals and solvents. The function of the water is to keep the resin and solvents apart until the water evaporates. Once the water evaporates the other components can come into contact, coalesce and flow out into a film finish. The water is NOT a thinner. The reason for calling these finishes "waterborne" is because the true finishing chemicals are "borne" in the water, not dissolved in the water. Adding water can cause the finish to fail if the components get too far apart when the water evaporates. Some urethane resin can be mixed in the resin mixture and then you have what marketed as "waterborne poly".

A point to be made is that oil based poly and waterborne poly are really two different finishes. The finishes produced are only similar in that they are both clear. Waterborne "shellacs" and waterborne "lacquers" are not true shellac or lacquer. In the manufacturer's opinion, their products have some characteristics comparable to chemical solvent shellac and lacquer but they are quite different. That's not to say that there is anything wrong with these products. Like any finish, some waterborne products are good, some are bad.

 

[Gofor]

Before this thread finishes I have a question about poly over Danish oil. I'm guessing that I'll know the oil is really dry when there is no longer any odor? Is there a specific type of poly to use?

You should be fine if you use regular poly varnish (any that says to clean up with paint thinner or mineral spirits) and allow the Danish Oil (again, another varnish) to dry as per manufacturer's recommendation for re-coating with another top-coat.. I notice on the Watco Danish Oil I have it recommends 72 hours cure before topcoating with polyurethane.

Go

 

[DaveO]

But why would you want to do that? Danish Oil in itself is a complete finish, it doesn't provide a high level of protection, but it does offer a more "in the wood" feel. If you like the coloration that Danish Oil gives but want a more durable finish, apply a little BLO and then move to your Polyurethane. Often you might not even need the BLO as the Poly will offer just about as much amber coloration...try on some scrap first.

Dave

 

[smitty62]

Being old-fashioned I still prefer an oil-based varnish for most items. My old stand-by was Martin-Senour Trim varnish, but they apparently quit making it as I can't find it anymore. I don't care for polyurethane as it looks like glossy plastic to me (JMO). Also, I heard it was difficult to rub out with 0000 wool, which is my preferred method. What are some suggestions to replace my old habits?:confused_
Dick