That's it, I'm a western saw kinda guy

[CatButler]

I really like the idea of the Japanese saw. The concept of the very thin kerf, cutting on pulling strike just seems more intuitive to me. I also like the idea of blades that are cheap, ready to use out of sleeve, and don't need a lot of maintenance. But the reality is I just can't cut straight with the things to save my life. After just a few cuts, I was good enough with the Lee Valley crosscut carcass saw to just saw a bit off the line, give it a couple passes on the shooting board and fit the board. Ripping an inch off a 48" board with a Disston 5 TPI saw is just so much easier, The first time, I pretty much stayed right next to line. No constantly flipping the board over to see if I am going into the line on the back side. And learning to sharpen them just isn't that bad. I may hit a problem when I actually have to adjust the set, but I haven't hit that yet, and hardwood sawing just doesn't need a lot of set.

It may be that there is something wrong with my technique or work holding that defeats me with the Japanese saws. Somebody posted this picture of a tiny foot bench that you bend over to use, well that just isn't going to happen without a live in chiropractor. It's very easy to find a video showing you how to use a western saw correctly.

There, I said it. I'm Cat Butler and I'm a Western saw user.

 

[CarvedTones]

I use the Japanese saws more than Western for general cutting, but accuracy is an issue. I sometimes start a cut with a Western backsaw to get a kerf aimed correctly and then take over with the Japanese. It's not for some esoteric philosophical reason. It's because I am lazy and it takes less effort to remove less wood. When I am feeling excessively lazy, I am not sure whether my approach is Western or Eastern - where is Bosch manufactured these days?
For precision cutting by hand, the saw I reach for most is a Western gent's saw.

 

[jerrye]

I find that with a pull saw, one of three things (or all) cause me to wander off the line.

1) I am horsing the saw. I have to remember what a friend's dad told me about chainsaws: "Let the saw do the work. You don't have to force it to cut; it'll do fine on its own." In fact, whenever I get someone to try cutting the first time with a pull saw, I get them to use only 2 fingers & thumb to hold it. Cuts fine that way.

2) My cut angle is too high. I cut best with a lower angle, usually 30° or less. This also helps reduce face tearout if I'm cutting ply.

3) I am impatient.

MTCW, YMMV.

 

[CatButler]

.

2) My cut angle is too high. I cut best with a lower angle, usually 30° or less. This also helps reduce face tearout if I'm cutting ply.


MTCW, YMMV.

That's one reason I will keep them. The crosscut one does a great job on melamine coated MDF.

 

[CarvedTones]

Might be semantics, but I don't have that much trouble with wandering; it's "aiming" that I have trouble with. With Western saws, the set makes a kerf wider than the flat sheet. Not much wider, but enough to give you a tiny bit of wiggle room to correct so you are on line as you start the cut. For about 3 to 5 strokes you can make some pretty substantial adjustments. With the Japanese saw, if you start with one pull with your angle slightly off you are in trouble; there is just too little wiggle room to steer it back easily without binding.

 

[CatButler]

I think I remember Schwartz posting once that saws with very little set are meant for very precise cut such as dovetails and M&T. With those cuts, you can precisely control where the blade is. Something like ripping a 4' board, there's no way your not going to correct. Once I try to correct, its seems to be over all over with Japanese saws and I lose the right angle with the board.

Jerry is right though, a lower angle works much better, but also seems to cover your line with sawdust.

 

[CarvedTones]

Something else Jerry is right about is bearing down too much. The saws with less set that you refer to typically are rigid blades with backs, like my friend the gent's saw. The blade won't flex and angle off a little if you bear down too hard. But it is hard to start a rip cut without a fair amount of pressure.

 

[froglips]

So you stayed at a Best Western Inn

I saw happiest on the push stroke too. (being in the same club I'm in may not be what you most wanted to hear....)

You could use a pull saw using the previously uninvented overhead bench which hangs from the ceiling and you stand on a trampoline......

Jim

I really like the idea of the Japanese saw. The concept of the very thin kerf, cutting on pulling strike just seems more intuitive to me. I also like the idea of blades that are cheap, ready to use out of sleeve, and don't need a lot of maintenance. But the reality is I just can't cut straight with the things to save my life. After just a few cuts, I was good enough with the Lee Valley crosscut carcass saw to just saw a bit off the line, give it a couple passes on the shooting board and fit the board. Ripping an inch off a 48" board with a Disston 5 TPI saw is just so much easier, The first time, I pretty much stayed right next to line. No constantly flipping the board over to see if I am going into the line on the back side. And learning to sharpen them just isn't that bad. I may hit a problem when I actually have to adjust the set, but I haven't hit that yet, and hardwood sawing just doesn't need a lot of set.

It may be that there is something wrong with my technique or work holding that defeats me with the Japanese saws. Somebody posted this picture of a tiny foot bench that you bend over to use, well that just isn't going to happen without a live in chiropractor. It's very easy to find a video showing you how to use a western saw correctly.

There, I said it. I'm Cat Butler and I'm a Western saw user.

 

[dotBob]

I haven't tried using a pull style saw yet, but since the kerf is typically (always?) the same width as the body of the blade itself, can't you use a guide block to begin the cut?

Is there a type of saw where the pull style thin kerf blade is glued to a piece of wood along the top of the entire length of blade? It wouldn't allow deep cuts, but very straight ones when using a squared piece of wood as a guide. I can see using an angled block to make very precise dovetails.

.bob

 

[AmishWarlord]

I see this guy uses a smaller saw to make a starter cut to get the big one going in the right direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKByZ2ty6nc

 

[CarvedTones]

I haven't tried using a pull style saw yet, but since the kerf is typically (always?) the same width as the body of the blade itself, can't you use a guide block to begin the cut?

Is there a type of saw where the pull style thin kerf blade is glued to a piece of wood along the top of the entire length of blade? It wouldn't allow deep cuts, but very straight ones when using a squared piece of wood as a guide. I can see using an angled block to make very precise dovetails.

.bob

I have thought about getting one of these.

 

[CarvedTones]

OK, this was odd timing. Right after I typed in the last response, my oldest daughter asked me to cut something for her. It was chopsticks hot glued to either side of a headband to make an arrow through the head sort of thing for a costume. My kids got an artsy/crafty gene somewhere. :dontknow: :roll: . She had glued it up before getting it cut to length; guess she got my lack of practicality also. :rolf: Anyway, to cut something that fine and get started in a stringy bamboo stick without jerking, my flush cut pull saw was the best tool. Of course, it may have been because I was cutting chopsticks that I needed an Asian saw... :gar-La;

 

[jerrye]

Andy, I think I'm gonna either get the guide you link to, or design one of my own using 1"x1"x1/8 aluminum angle, 3"x1/4" UHMW, and rare earth magnets....one of these days....

Kinda off topic of this thread, but not really...

FWIW I have found a fine toothed pull saw the best tool to use for cutting straight lines in thermoplastic sheets such as Lexan and acrylic. Works very well, especially with the thinner stuff, as long as I keep the angle low. I use a hardened tooth saw, like the ones Lowe's sells. Leaves a super clean edge too.

Once again, MTCW & YMMV.

 

[CarvedTones]

Jerry,

This one is probably a better design. I am drawn to the simplicity of the magnet though. I have been ordering Zeta blades from Tashiro Hardware.

 

[CatButler]

I see this guy uses a smaller saw to make a starter cut to get the big one going in the right direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKByZ2ty6nc

Those are actually a pretty nice set of videos. There's also a video from the same guy doing a cross cut that is pretty much opposite how I was using the saw. One thing I noticed was how different the work is held in relation to the blade. I think this solves a lot of the problems I was talking about. I would probably have to redesign my work surface way from the Western style benches to something different.

I've done some thinking about this and a lot of it ends up like Jim's over the head workbench. I'm sure a lot of this information is becoming more available, but I'm not really interested in doing research, I just want to cut wood.

But I'm not giving away my Japanese saws, just as Andy showed, they do come in handy in a lot of situations, especially small pieces where you don't have a lot of problem wandering.

 

[CarvedTones]

One thing that jumps out at me in the video is the tapered spine on his crosscut saw. If I had a Japanese backsaw, I probably would use my Western ones less. I sort of have one, as I have a miter saw and guide that is one of those models that looks like an oversized hacksaw and you can turn the blade around, but it is large and unwieldy for small stuff.
I have another odd habit from swapping back and forth. Sometimes I hold my gent's saw with the handle at the wrong end and pull toward me. I just did this last night scoring lines on a carving. That's mostly due the the grain dictating direction for the cleanest/smoothest cut. I could reposition the blank, switch hands or walk around, but often I will just pull instead of pushing. I have learned to carve and turn okay with either hand, still better at detail with the right, but sawing with the off hand is anything but highly accurate.

 

[CatButler]

Here is the site of the guy who made the you tube videos. It's very interesting to see how he uses the saws, and points out several mistakes in techniques I have made.

http://www.askwoodman.com/2010/11/25/best-japanese-hand-saws/

1) The saw should be pulled down rather than up
2) For rip cuts, the end grain should be facing you.
3) It's better to have the wood held higher to your body. (Actually this is true for many joiner cuts with Western saws too.)

 

[JimmyC]

Anyway, to cut something that fine and get started in a stringy bamboo stick without jerking, my flush cut pull saw was the best tool.

I also like western saws, the only things that I use asian saws for anymore is like what Carved Tones mentioned above and flush cuts. I have found that western style saws are much more accurate, and faster cutting, for me. BTW, my first decentsaws were asian, so I had to change to western to find out which I liked better. Taking a dovetail cless with Bill Anderson allowed me to play with different quality western saws and I fell in love with them.

JMTCW

 

[CarvedTones]

I have found that western style saws are much more accurate, and faster cutting, for me.

Interesting. I find the first part to be true, but I can cut substantially faster with an Asian saw. Cutting construction lumber to length I am almost twice as fast. The reason is obvious - each cut will leave about half as much sawdust on the floor. So each cut is less physical work that I do in less time. That is one of the main things that has kept me from giving up on pull saws. IMO it's all about the kerf though, not the direction. When I use that aforementioned miter saw that I got from a kind soul named JimmyC I cut at the same speed with the blade mounted for either direction. For miter cuts I use it Western style as it is designed to push against the fence.

 

[jerrye]

Jerry,

This one is probably a better design. I am drawn to the simplicity of the magnet though. I have been ordering Zeta blades from Tashiro Hardware.

That is a nice design too, Andy, but I am thinking more along the lines of developing something that can move the saw & guide along the workpiece, kinda like a tracksaw. With the guides you linked to it appears to me that you would have to reposition the guide or the workpiece, if the workpiece is large. Since I am mostly working with sheet goods, having something that I could clamp along my cutline once appeals to me. Oh well, I'll see what happens...

Besides, isn't tinkering fun? :icon_scra:eusa_doh::BangHead: