Sprayed some Lacquer

[cpowell]

Finally broke the seal and opened the Porter Cable PSH1 box today. Did a little clean up with some thinner. Went to Lowes and got a 1/4 fitting that ALMOST worked (I really hate the way comp air fittings are all just enough different to not work with each other). Ended up stringing together various fittings on hand and got air to the gun.

I have been intimidated by this spraying lacquer thing for a while now. Today I said "why not?" and just went for it. I practiced spraying with the thinner left in the cup after cleanup, then loaded with NC lacquer and coated a few pieces of scrap 1/4 borg ply. It wasn't perfect but close enough. I headed over to the cab carcass.

It was a learn as you go experience. The inner cab/shelf area was too tight for the gun so I used some aerosol deft lacquer I had left over. Started on the big panel on the back side with the gun and just worked my way around. I believe I improved as I went along. It's not perfect, but, hey, it's lacquer! I managed three coats on everything. I'll lightly sand tomorrow and add a final coat.

I'll admit it started getting a little bit cool after the sun went down. Had the overhead door, man door, and window open to get rid of volatiles. I wore a NIOSH approved mask of course.

I will finish the upper cab in NC lacquer just to use up what I've got on hand then I intend to try Target Coatings USL. I've read way too many good things about USL lacquer and shellac here. Where do you order from?

Anyhow, pics below.

Chuck

 

[woodguy1975]

Unfortunately you are out of luck for ordering any WB coating for a little while yet. They can't ship that stuff in cold weather. One freeze thaw cycle will ruin it. I know Homestead and WWS both don't ship over the winter. Keep that in mind for storing the WB material too.

John

 

[DavidF]

I got mine directly from Target Coatings - Home

 

[Travis Porter]

Looks good Chuck!

Got mine the same place as DavidF. I wouldn't think it would get cold enough to freeze. It isn't as if it stays below freezing in these parts for any amount of time.

 

[mshel]

Call me a cheap SOB or whatever, but I just can't see $42.00 a gal for waterbased finish. Not when I can spray Pre_Cat lacquer for less than half of that. I guess I just don't get it.

MIke

 

[woodguy1975]

Call me a cheap SOB or whatever, but I just can't see $42.00 a gal for waterbased finish. Not when I can spray Pre_Cat lacquer for less than half of that. I guess I just don't get it.

MIke

You cheap SOB!!!!! :rolf: :rolf: :rolf: Just kidding!!!

Mike, WB is about fumes (VOCs) and safety. That is it. Although a gallon of WB will last longer than a gallon of Solvent based because the solids are higher meaned you lay down more material with each coat. It is just about dealing with the dangerous fumes of solvent based products.

John

 

[Travis Porter]

Ditto! You cheap SOB!!! :lol:

I agree with Woodguy. It isn't about being cheap. I am outright chicken to spray the real lacquer. Maybe I am too chicken, I don't know. I do use a mask still with the WB, and I do run a fan as there are some fumes.

Mike, what is your spray set up? Do you have a specific room? How do you ventilate? How long you been spraying the other stuff? I am curious as you have me thinking I may be too "chicken". The WB is not cheap, I will grant you that, but the WB lacquer sprays beautifully. How does the real thing spray?

 

[mshel]

Travis,

Unfortunately I don't have a spray room. Rather I just move the piece into the doorway (overhead door) and put a fan in the doorway to remove the spray fumes. Granted it is not perfect and occasionally I get a little overspray but (knock on wood) so far it has worked. As for the "real thing" spraying, since I have never sprayed WB or anything else, I don't know what or how to compare it to. I am not by any stretch a complete idiot and I do take precautions such as no open flame, etc while spraying and if I am spraying a large piece I will stop and let the fan catch up with the fog before continuing. Maybe some day I will have a dedicated room for spraying but don't see that happening any time soon.

MIke

 

[Travis Porter]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything.

Compared to say polyurethane is it easy to spray? Does it lay down well? As to fumes/fog, I get some on the wb, but I can't say that I have had a fog. How long can you spray (minutes) before needing to let the fan catch up. How many coats does it take for you to be finished? On the WB, I sprayed 7 (more than I really needed) on my last project, but probably cut have gotten by with 4. Downside to the WB is that it does raise the grain.

What I was thinking was that I probably could spray some of the VOC stuff (I was thinking more like shellac or dyes diluted in alcohol) and that way I don't raise the grain.

 

[mshel]

Travis, I didn't mean to imply that you were implying anything, I just wanted to let everyone know that I do think about safety. I can normally spray both sides of a chest say before letting the fog clear. A lot depends on how heavy I am laying it on. I normally spary in this fashion:

Sealer: Spray complete piece and let dry
Spray complete piece again and let dry

Sand entire piece with 220 grit paper

Lacquer: Spray complete piece and let dry

 

[Travis Porter]

Cool. I will give it a try on some shellac. Although the WB shellac works, it is a PITA (at least for me) to spray.

I got a 2nd PSH1 from Amazon for $39 :eusa_danc so I have two guns to tinker with now.

 

[mshel]

Travis, I didn't mean to imply that you were implying anything, I just wanted to let everyone know that I do think about safety. I can normally spray both sides of a chest say before letting the fog clear. A lot depends on how heavy I am laying it on. I normally spary in this fashion:

Sealer: Spray complete piece and let dry
Spray complete piece again and let dry

Sand entire piece with 220 grit paper

Lacquer: Spray complete piece and let dry
Spray complete piece and let dry.

If necessary, rub out again and respray lacquer.

Sometimes I only put one coat of lacquer on, depending on what I am spraying. Table tops always get two coats of lacquer but sometimes I only put one on the aprons and legs. Chests tops (2), chest sides, front (1 or 2 depending) Drawer faces get two.

Just my way,

Mike

 

[mshel]

My apologies to Chuck, didn't mean to highjack his thread.
Chuck :slap: Me


Mike

 

[cpowell]

My apologies to Chuck, didn't mean to highjack his thread.
Chuck :slap: Me


Mike

No apology needed. I have a lot of learning to do with this spraying thing. I am just way back on the learning curve. I had really hoped the thread would generate some discussion. How long to let the stain dry, how long to let the lacquer dry before recoat/sand? How long to let the piece dry before steel wool/final rub out?

I have read to lay it down wet but have had trouble getting a pattern that will allow consistent application. I have searched here, woodweb, woodnet...Googled the net. Sometimes DOING means a lot more than reading.

I have applied lacquer (inadvertently) to the shop floor, all over my hands, my jeans, my assembly table, and a little bit on the project. Am I doing it right?

I am interested in WB lacquer to get away from the VOCs. Do I need to open doors and windows using WB lacquer? Can I keep them open for ventilation while spraying the close up and fire up the heater? Way too many questions, huh?

Maybe the next time you create one of your show pieces you could invite me over to spray it for you as practice! What the heck, I'll even bring my sprayer. Mike :slap: Me

For the record I have spent enough time with Mike to know he is extremely cheap. I mean Sapwood level cheap! :lol:

Chuck

 

[Travis Porter]

IMO, for the water based, you still need a window open with a fan and you still need a mask. It does have fumes. You should be able to run your heater with it though. If you are getting a lot of overspray, I would think it means you have your pressure too high or your air adjustment open too far. You may not have a big enough needle to spray what you are spraying (that I don't know).

I can say when I have used the PSH1 with the WB, I have not had a lot of overspray. I did not have to mask off areas, and I did not have fog or clouds. I don't know about the VOC based, but for the WB you need to sand lightly before your final coat say with 600 grit paper with a bit of lubricant (water is what I use) clean it up, and put on your final coat.

Now I did cover the area I was spraying with drop cloths just to keep from spraying the floor and my assembly table. I cannot tell that I have gotten any on anything besides the drop cloths from overspray though.

 

[DavidF]

In my latest experience spraying a table top; the overspray was next to nothing and what there was had turned to a fine dust by the time it landed so just brushed off. I wore a NIOSH mask and had the overhead filter running. Lesson learned - don't spray too dry. Then if you realise that that's what has happened don't just spray a wetter coat on the top. The dry coat needs to be sanded down VERY smooth before the next coat to prevent the dreaded orange peel. Note: trying to polish out defects in the Oxford USL satin finish will turn it into a gloss finish very easily and contrary to what you might read elsewhere; trying to rub it back to a satin with wire wool and wax just gives you a scratched gloss finish:BangHead: A true satin must come directly from the gun.

 

[Gofor]

I have applied lacquer (inadvertently) to the shop floor, all over my hands, my jeans, my assembly table, and a little bit on the project. Am I doing it right?
Chuck

Short answer: No. It sounds like you have the air pressure way too high( On the PSH1 I believe you have a knob on the side. Turn it in until the air quits and then back it out. Input to the gun should not exceed about 30 - 40 psi with lacquer and with the new guns, may be lower) or the the fan pattern set to maximum (the knob on the top back of the gun). You will need to play with both adjustments to get a good pattern, and you need to have your finish in the gun to set it up for the work you are spraying.
With the gun pointed perpendicular to what you are spraying (a paper bag works good for set-up) you should get a solid line of slight oval when pulling the trigger and not moving the gun. To set it up, the nozzle should be about a foot from the surface. If you get a good pattern, keep this distance from the work. If you back off too far, the paint just reaches the work as a fog. You should be able to get a good pattern somewhere between 8" and 15". The further back, the wider the pattern, but there is a definite limit depending on the gun.
Second, it sounds like you may be "whipping" the gun (allowing it to turn out to the right and left as you start/finish the stroke). All this does is pump paint into the air. Try to keep it perpendicular (in both planes: up/down and side/side) to the surface you are spraying.
Pressing the trigger After you start moving the gun and releasing Before you stop will also reduce overspray. This is a learned process, and many novices just hold the rigger down and "fan". If this is what you are doing, I would suggest you keep to that until you finish this piece and then practice later on good trigger technique. If you try to concentrate on a new technique instead of looking at your work, you will undoubtedly have a lot of runs to sand out. In the futture, it will greatly expand your capabilities with the gun and reduce o'spray, but at this point you want to get the case finished. For now, concentrate on setting up a good pattern and finding the right distance to get a solid wet coat.
PM me if you want more info. I'm about 45 minutes or so down the road and maybe I can come give you some pointers. I pushed a spray gun for about 35 years (the HVLPs we used were commercial grade). The old hands don't work as well as they did, but I might be able to help. Besides, I have been wanting to check out the PSH1 anyway.

Good luck

Go

 

[cpowell]

Short answer: No. It sounds like you have the air pressure way too high( On the PSH1 I believe you have a knob on the side. Turn it in until the air quits and then back it out. Input to the gun should not exceed about 30 - 40 psi with lacquer and with the new guns, may be lower) or the the fan pattern set to maximum (the knob on the top back of the gun). You will need to play with both adjustments to get a good pattern, and you need to have your finish in the gun to set it up for the work you are spraying.
With the gun pointed perpendicular to what you are spraying (a paper bag works good for set-up) you should get a solid line of slight oval when pulling the trigger and not moving the gun. To set it up, the nozzle should be about a foot from the surface. If you get a good pattern, keep this distance from the work. If you back off too far, the paint just reaches the work as a fog. You should be able to get a good pattern somewhere between 8" and 15". The further back, the wider the pattern, but there is a definite limit depending on the gun.
Second, it sounds like you may be "whipping" the gun (allowing it to turn out to the right and left as you start/finish the stroke). All this does is pump paint into the air. Try to keep it perpendicular (in both planes: up/down and side/side) to the surface you are spraying.
Pressing the trigger After you start moving the gun and releasing Before you stop will also reduce overspray. This is a learned process, and many novices just hold the rigger down and "fan". If this is what you are doing, I would suggest you keep to that until you finish this piece and then practice later on good trigger technique. If you try to concentrate on a new technique instead of looking at your work, you will undoubtedly have a lot of runs to sand out. In the futture, it will greatly expand your capabilities with the gun and reduce o'spray, but at this point you want to get the case finished. For now, concentrate on setting up a good pattern and finding the right distance to get a solid wet coat.
PM me if you want more info. I'm about 45 minutes or so down the road and maybe I can come give you some pointers. I pushed a spray gun for about 35 years (the HVLPs we used were commercial grade). The old hands don't work as well as they did, but I might be able to help. Besides, I have been wanting to check out the PSH1 anyway.

Good luck

Go

Mark, I may have exaggerated a little bit. :lol: The piece actually looks okay. I will admit I didn't have the sprayer optimized though. I need to sort out the interactions of the various controls I think. The atomization looked okay, just moving with a lot of velocity!

Lacquer on me was from a cup filling error. Floor was a pouring error. Assy table was mainly overspray and lack of a plastic sheet. I'll clean it in the next few days.

I had the compressor regulator set at 80 psig and between 25-30 at the gun. When the gun was spraying pressure dropped to 20 psig at the gun regulator, comp regulator pressure stayed pretty constant.

I released the trigger at the ends to stop fluid flow, attempted to overlap layers about 1/3 or so to fill in the lighter areas. I had pretty good luck on the vertical areas. I had NO runs but started moving too quickly and had to re-pass to wet it down. Overall, I think the cab looks pretty good.

I'd love to take you up on a short lesson though. There is NO doubt in my mind the pattern and flow was not optimized. I had to do way too much work to cover the pieces.

Chuck

 

[chris99z71]

Thanks Go! That's the best explanation I've heard on how to setup/adjust an HVLP gun.

 

[DavidF]

One point to note if you spray WB laquer is the distance to the work piece is considerably shorter more like 8 -10" or the the stuff starts to dry before it reaches the surface.