Let's discuss the potential reopening of the Off Topic Forum.....

[TracyP]

Fellow staff members, This will be a discussion as to the future of the Off Topic Forum. My intentions are to let this thread run for a minimum of two weeks, up to a maximum of four weeks. The off topic forum has been a thorn in the Staff's side for quite some time. Most of the policy violations come in the OT forum. We really need to weigh this out and decide among us if the positive outweighs the negative, or does the negative outweigh the positive. We are a Woodworking website. We could function without the off topic forum and continue to gain members, We could continue to be the friendliest woodworking website on the net without an off topic forum. But I am thinking that we need a place to allow the members to discuss things that do not fit in any of the other forums. I really am unsure what to do here. I welcome the replies from all staff and BOD members. Should we remove it, or should we re-open it? The staff replies here will be the a great help in deciding what to do with the off topic forum. I know, I repeat a lot of things....... That insures that you will read it over and over......:tongue2::roll: :rotflm::rotflm:

 

[Glennbear]

As I had stated during out last conference call meeting I am in favor of keeping the off topic forum. :wsmile:

 

[b4man]

I have not missed it! However, I'm not opposed to having it.

Tracy, your PM to Jeff was exactly what I would have liked to say many times. If you are willing to be that intolerant in the future with Jeff, Dragon and other repeat offenders I'd be a lot happier about seeing it return.

It's bad enough that we as mod's have to put up with the constant envelope pushing but when we have to endure the hesitance of our superiors to put an end to it, it's becomes too aggravating.

Thanks for asking.


B

 

[Gotcha6]

Do we want to consider a poll among Corporate Members on this to get a feel for how they feel?
If not, then open it under the condition that repeat offenders will be suspended and subsequently banned from its use. Flame baiting and other tactics will be dealt with swiftly. I feel our sequence of action should be to edit posts first, delete posts when they cannot be edited, and then close threads. Disciplinary action should be by BoD on this. Make the announcement with those terms & tell members if they want to talk politics, economy, or any other controversial non - woodworking subject, PM it among themselves or take it elsewhere. Even Craigslist has forums for this it they wanna go there. JMTCW

 

[froglips]

Firstly, thank you for opening this up for discussion. :thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up

My first thought is leave it closed. Stick to Woodworking.

As you already have undertaken, clarify and possibly expand the concept behind "User Announcements". I think one area to focus is the word User. Things and events that are about us. Sharing those personal events is something I consider a strong part of our community.

Case in point, a new birth, marriage, pet, moving/new home, etc. Where I see the OT as being "i found this ____ on the internet" or a random medical procedure, etc etc.

Were we to keep OT, I've gone on record setting it up as an "opt in only" forum that is not moderated (unless we become aware of a serious issue). I'd give us, by policy, carte blanche moderation rights in such an OT forum.

In this rare instance, I tend to disagree respectfully with asking for a Corporate Membership vote on this. 99% of our membership is blissfully unaware from the issues we have had to contend with.

The existence of the OT forum, IMHO, is the responsibility of the Board and Staff when measured in terms of our stated mission. I suspect few people when asked, would vote not to have the choice of an OT forum.

Swift enforcement of suspension and banning of repeated policy offenders is something that I agree with.

Jim

 

[Trent Mason]

Tracy, thank you for opening this discussion. :eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

Again, I apologize for not being on the conference call last week as I would have gladly spoken about it there.

I agree with what has been stated that the OT forum is not necessary to the survival of NCWWer. However, I think that it adds a unique quality to the site and encourages camaraderie between members. I'd like to share how it added to the site for me personally.

When I first came over from woodnet, I thought this was the coolest thing since sliced bread. A regionally based group of woodworkers who didn't just talk about woodworking from behind a computer screen, they actually met up at the annual picnic, shop crawls, lunch bunches, etc. At that point, I knew that I at least had woodworking in common with everyone here, but I'm sure that like most of you, I sought out to find those that I may share other interests with, or looked for folks that I felt like I was on the same page with, etc. The OT forum was a great place for fostering those types of interactions. For example, about two years ago, I posted something about a huge swell that was coming in from a storm off the coast. Mike (Shamrock) replied to it and a month or two later, we were out surfing together. Since then, I think I've met up with him two more times for a surf session and we were even trying to meet up a few months ago when a swell came through, him from Charlotte, me from Raleigh. That may have never been possible if I hadn't posted that on the OT forum.

I could list examples all day, but I think you all get the point. :gar-La; Just know that there are many examples like that. Not all of them are as specific as finding another hobby that you share with another member, but through the random interaction in the OT forum, I was more able to find members that I was "on the same page" with. And in my opinion, since it has been closed, there has been something missing from the site. It "feels" much more cut and dry now, not as personable and friendly.

So here we are, with the OT forum closed. From what I understand, the original intention was to review and "revamp" the moderation policies. I'm ALL FOR THAT. :thumbs_up:thumbs_up If it makes the lives of the moderators easier, that sounds good to me. As far as the policy itself goes, I would recommend a "3 strikes and your out" policy, but the problem with that is the difference in severity of a "strike." For example, in the "hot tub" thread that was posted last winter, I seriously doubt that anyone who replied to it meant it as an attack or to be offensive. However, it was not appropriate content for this site and it was deleted.

I would consider a "strike" to be:

- a personal attack on another member (or anyone for that matter)
- a post that shows favoritism for or against a political party/religion/(any of the "red flag" topics)
- a post that includes the intentional use of profanity. (not a typo)

Three strikes and you're banned from the site.

Feel free to use what I've written, add to, edit, etc.

Since I was not on the conference call, I will share with you now that I did not understand why the OT forum was closed in the first place. Of course, we are where we are so it needs to be taken into consideration. I have two questions:

1. Are the moderation policies still going to be edited?

2. If so, is it better to just leave the OT forum closed while those changes take place, or do we open it first, then post the moderation policies?

In my opinion, at this point, either of those options would work. Just because moderation changes are taking place, they can be implemented once they are complete.

Sorry for the long winded response. I've had lots of thoughts on this topic. Generally, I read all of the moderator threads to keep up with what's going on, but I never post in them. I only posted this because Tracy asked. :rotflm: Lastly, I'd like to thank all of you for everything that you do for the site. You all truly make this place one of a kind and I'm really excited about where we're going. :notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

 

[Mt. Gomer]

I'd vote for re-opening the off topic forum. Yes, we're a woodworking site and that needs to remain our primary focus, however we're also a regional site that encourages folks to get to know one another personally both online and off. The off topic forum allows a place for that and, if not abused, I think it's quite valuable.

A few other thoughts:

1. I'm intrigued by the idea of having it be opt in. It's an easy win and would allow those people who aren't interested in seeing it to be blissfully unaware of the conversations going on there
2. I REALLY like the idea of banning abusers of the OT forum from the OT forum. If a small minority can't handle it I see no reason why we have to punish everyone.
3. I've gone back and forth on the moderated v. unmoderated for OT and I think I'm leaning towards the moderated side. It think we could loosen the rules a bit if all were ok with it to allow civil discourse on more contriversial topics however we definitley need people around to keep it civil, friendly, etc... I'm also fine with not opening that can of worms and leaving the site policies as the are and applicable to the OT forum.
4. If we do decide to keep it open and moderated I think we should have a larger team of moderators designated to keep an eye on things that the standard one or two for each forum. As I'm voting to keep the forum and I'm not assigned anywere else at the moment I'll volunteer to be one of thos mods.

Travis

 

[Douglas Robinson]

I do not want to sway the discussion too much so I will not be posting in this thread very much. Having said that, I will throw out my opinion about a small part of this. I am against having any forum on this site that is completely unmoderated. We do not need the problems that will lead to as the attitudes it creates WILL bleed into other forums. I have discussed this with people that run other sites.

This is JUST my 2 cents worth. :gar-Bi

 

[Joe Scharle]

Much of the persona and charm of this site is it's feeling of 'family'. And like any family, it's composed of personalities. I've never met a woodworker that was one dimensional, only interested in woodworking (turners being the exception:wink_smil), but full of interest in many areas. And due in part, to the many face to face opportunities members have here, like Trent, have established and supported other shared interest through this site's OFF TOPIC forum. As they say of war, 'shared experiences.....bond'.
However, as I stated during the conference call, the moderators have the unhappy task of policing these forums and should make the decision on this matter.

 

[Bas]

I think that NCWW is diverse in its mission that there should be an Off Topic forum for discussions outside of woodworking. Such a forum should be moderated, using the same rules as for the other forums. Quite frankly, if someone feels the need to be rude/ confrontational/ controversial in the OT forum, that's not the kind of person I'd like to talk to in the woodworking forums either.

Moderating the Off Topic forum isn't particularly onerous. It's only becomes a source of frustration when the same people keep breaking the rules over and over again, without repercussions. So I would suggest that before the OT forum is reopened, there is a clarity on what the consequences are for repeat offenders.

I think the three strikes idea that Trent suggested is great. That doesn't mean we have to start keeping track of minor offenses (we've all posted something that in retrospect we think - woops!), but if someone clearly violates the rules, that's a strike. Whether we ban someone after three strikes, or suspend someone for two weeks, or first issue a formal warning with a probation period doesn't matter. What matters is that there is a clear, unambiguous procedure that outlines what happens. It keeps the emotion out of things, cases are handled consistently, and ensure the people who have to perform the unpleasantness don't end up with an ulcer.

 

[Gotcha6]

Consider the following metaphor:
Throughout my life, when there was a public event in our community where they needed help, it would often become my task to clean up the trash. Many people never noticed this being done unless it wasn't done well. Some things never change. The only reason Disney World stays as clean as it does is:
1. They don't sell popcorn, peanuts or gum.
2. They have an army of sweepers.
People will still litter the landscape of our site with things we don't want here.

If it is decided to keep the OT, which I feel many of our members enjoy, we will still need to 'take out the trash', but we may need to consider the products we allow to a certain degree.

 

[froglips]

Very interesting perspectives!

I would, just for the sake of history, point out that something happened in the OT Forum in late 2008 that was most unpleasant. So much so, the entire OT forum was removed and a fresh empty one was setup. If I'm not mistaken, we lost some long term members over those issues.

I was not active at the time, so I am sorry for not knowing the specifics.

2009 OT abuse led to suspension of two members. Not something that was done easily. While it was "only two", our time and energy was eaten up by those situations..

As a volunteer group, is that time/energy spent worth the trade off?

I'd also point out we've heard from members who have taken issue with the Off Topic forum.

I'd ask that we keep in mind OT (as it exists today) has not always be positive for this community.

Dennis, I do love that trash metaphor

Jim

 

[toolman]

I am fine with out the OT, but we do need it. I believe our policies are fine but may need some work. I do believe the OT needs to be a opt-in. As for as OT policies, they would be the same as our main policies with a added statement as per Trent had said to a point.

As far as the policy itself goes, I would recommend a "3 strikes and your out" policy, but the problem with that is the difference in severity of a "strike." For example, in the "hot tub" thread that was posted last winter, I seriously doubt that anyone who replied to it meant it as an attack or to be offensive. However, it was not appropriate content for this site and it was deleted.

I would consider a "strike" to be:

- a personal attack on another member (or anyone for that matter)
- a post that shows favoritism for or against a political party/religion/(any of the "red flag" topics)
- a post that includes the intentional use of profanity. (not a typo)

Three strikes and you're banned from the site.

I believe after three strikes they would be suspended for 1 week, 2 weeks, or 1 month from the OT Forum only.. (If they post a OT thread in any forum while on suspension they would be banned from the site..)

Then after serving there suspension they would be aloud to return to the OT. But three more (six in total) they would be Banned for the OT... On top of that if they try to place OT threads in the other forums, you got it 3 strikes and your banned from the sit.

Just my $.02

 

[NCTurner]

I am very much in favor of the OT forum, as I have said before. I feel it is part of what helps local members connect with each other on a level far beyond that of woodworking or the general forums. I think the opt in idea is great, and also like the idea that there should be a strike out system in place.

Maybe I am mistaken, but I feel that as a Mod it is my duty to keep an eye on all threads on the forum, not just those that are assigned. If the OT forum was watched by all mods policing it shouldn't be terrible difficult. A set of rules in place will as also stated take the emotion out of making the decision to moderate a post.

 

[Mt. Gomer]

Maybe I am mistaken, but I feel that as a Mod it is my duty to keep an eye on all threads on the forum, not just those that are assigned. If the OT forum was watched by all mods policing it shouldn't be terrible difficult. A set of rules in place will as also stated take the emotion out of making the decision to moderate a post.

You're basically right, moderators are allowed and expected to act on any thread, in any forum that the feel needs attention. The problem is that it's impossilble for any one moderator to read every post on every thread on the entire site. For this reason there are a few moderators assiged specifically to each forum (generally the ones where they have specific knowledge so they can be more effective). For your assigned forum the goal is to read all of the posts in that forum. This makes sure that every post is read by a moderator in a timely fashion.

My suggestion was to make sure that there are several mods reading all of the OT posts, not just the ones who's subject catches their eyes....

Trav

 

[b4man]

As I read the ideas here I'm leaning toward zero tolerance. Counting strikes is going to be labor intensive and murky because somebody has to call the strike and judge it's severity.

Minor infractions can be edited out w/ explanations but the major issues are why we're having to do this anyway. I suggest we put a strong warning on that forum that spells out our serious intent on keeping it 'clean'. Kind of like the saying goes; Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Barbara

 

[froglips]

Before we close the books, one more thought about this from Hillsborough

We could move Off Topic to something external, such as Facebook.

Before we dive into the philosophical debate on social media, consider there already is an NCWW facebook page where I think quite a few off topic discussions ensued.

It does introduce complexity, but also offers some interesting solutions to the issues we've discussed here.

Jim

 

[Gotcha6]

Before we close the books, one more thought about this from Hillsborough

We could move Off Topic to something external, such as Facebook.

Before we dive into the philosophical debate on social media, consider there already is an North Carolina Woodworker facebook page where I think quite a few off topic discussions ensued.

It does introduce complexity, but also offers some interesting solutions to the issues we've discussed here.

Jim

Do our 'Poster Boys' (David & Jeff Mills) know about this site? If so, then they may just want a larger audience. If not, perhaps they should be told. We have no control over what is said over there, right?

 

[CaptnA]

I've read a lot this morning. I thought I'd add my thoughts here.

I don't see Off Topic as vital to the site. I DO see it as very important to some of the membership. That makes it important to me. To some it must be an integral part of the site. Does it carry more potential for abuse? Certainly. If anything perhaps it might require more moderator attention, but no more or less scrutiny. Someone that is offended or impuned is no more or less injured by the problem appearing in a particular section.

I visit another site which has a similar section. It is an 'enter at your own risk' area of the forum and is marked as such. I have truthfully been disgusted at some of what I've seen in there. There is no moderation there by design. I won't go back to that area even though I do enjoy most of the rest of the site. Am I missing out by not being part of that area? I hope not. I could miss something that would appeal to me, but that's my loss and the cost of my choice.

In our policy rules, what is and is not allowed is fairly well spelled out. Maybe this needs to be looked at if there are mass problems or questions. I don't believe most would be surprised that action was taken on something they wrote. Maybe initially, but certainly not in retrospect. When someone is moderated they are notified and the reasons(s) included and the violated policy cited.

I see no problem in re-opening the forum as long as it follows the policy rules. I don't want different rules for different areas, and I surely don't want to see un-moderated areas.

 

[TracyP]

Some good ideas have been posted here, I just wanted to bump it back to the top and see if there were any more discussions. Thank you for all of your input!!