Which dovetail saw to buy???

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kooshball

David
Corporate Member
The more I learn about woodworking the more I move toward a hybrid approach as it relates to power vs. hand tools. I started out with all power tools but slowly started buying and using various hand planes, bench chisels, mortise chisels, flush-cut saws, etc. I don't think I will ever go 100% one way or the other but I do want to jump in and master some hand-cut dovetails next. As an added bonus, my wife's lack of interest in my hobby seems to stem from intimidation by power tools but more so, a hatred for dust, goggles, respirators, air-cleaners, dust collectors, etc. Not only is she willing to try some hand tool joinery but she signed us both up for a class with Roy Underhill to learn together!

That said, I want to buy a decent dovetail saw (or two) so that I can learn using my own equipment and perhaps practice a bit ahead of time. I would also consider the saws that would be necessary for cutting tenons but my next few projects are going to be dovetail related so those other saws can wait.

So, what to look for in a dovetail saw? Veritas, Lie-Nielsen, or others....help me spend some $$$!

Thanks!
 

Larry Rose

New User
Larry Rose
I've had a L-N for some time now and am very pleased with it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one again.
 

PeteM

Pete
Corporate Member
That question is as debatable as "Pins First or Tails First"!
There is a spirited thread on "The Burl" on this subject.

Here's one of the posts: (they do get a bit long winded over there !!!)

>> I read the responses to your question. They are typical of what you will find on woodworking websites, where the focus is more on tools than on the quality of the finished product.

Remember Tage Frid? He used a bow saw.

Do you know joinerswork (Ray Pine)? He uses a old $10 gents saw.

Have you heard of Ben Hobbs, who won the 2011 Cartouche award for lifetime achievement in making period furniture? He has used a gents saw for a long time, then bought one of those new Lie Nielsen's with graduated teeth per inch. He likes the gent's saw better. HIS FURNITURE IS FLAWLESS. His dovetails are tight, and he works fast.

I took a course from Ben Hobbs last week. I have been using a LN for a few years. WHy? Well, lots of folks on the websites say its good, and I worked for Woodcraft when they sold LNs so I got it at a significant discount. But last week I cut dovetails for the carcass of a chest of drawers and for four large drawers, all with a gents saw. I like it better than the LN. That was a big surprise to me. I had read that you can't tell the direction it is going because of its round handle. Having used the saw every day last week, I can tell you that is not the case.

You can buy a gent's saw almost anywhere. I just looked up the Woodcraft website and they have one for about $23.

Go to a store where you can try a dozuki, a Western saw and a gent's saw, and see what you think.

I believe that the "Trick" to cutting nice dovetails has little to do with the saw, and a great deal to do with skill, which comes with practice.

Of course, what I am saying is not the "current wisdom". Your use of a gents saw will be looked down upon by the "BUY THE BEST" crowd. If you judge the results of top notch furniture makers such as Ray Pine and Ben Hobbs, versus the results of those here who push for the expensive saws, you'll probably go with the gents saw.

Whatever you do, THINK FOR YOURSELF. I have found that asking "Which tool should I buy?" on woodworking websites not to be either interesting or useful. i have found that watching top notch craftsmen gives me a better understanding of how things really are.

By the way, some of the folks who recommended what I call "boutique" saws to you are excellent woodworkers. Sampson is quite good, and he is a very nice guy. But he is a tool afficianado, IMHO. Nothing wrong with that. It is a valid weltanschauung, just not mine.

Here is another way of looking at things. The average poster on woodworking websites seems to be an older white male of above average means who enjoys expensive tools. So it is easy to figure out how they will respond when you ask a tool question.

Also there are other biases in answers to which tool should I buy. Remember that many people who recommend saws do not make furniture for a living. Many are fairly wealthy hobbyists. Others are SALESMEN. Rob Cosman, who is a very nice guy, is a salesman. He tried to make a living by making fine furniture, but found that he could not make enough to feed his family, so he went to selling tools and to giving lessons. Can Rob Cosman cut a nice set of dovetails? Absolutely. And he can do it fast. He has cut more dovetails than most. That has more to do with his prowess than the saw he uses. He recommends starting your session each day by cutting a set of dovetails and to do that for a year or more. If you do that, I believe you could cut beautiful dovetails using any saw available, using your "other" hand.

For the fun of it, I have tried to cut dovetails with a 26" crosscut saw, a large bow saw, a small bow saw, and with my chain saw. It is a fun exercise. Give it a try on some scrap wood. As soon as you realize that cutting dovetails is nothing very exciting or difficult, you get over the "romance" of dovetailing, and you can focus instead on "making fine furniture". That changes your whole outlook on tools. I guarantee you, no one can tell what kind of hand plane you used on a piece or what type of hand saw you used. They can tell if you have the skill to use your tools well.

My hope is that my post helps you think about buying and using tools in general, not just your dovetail saw. In the scope of making fine furniture, the dovetail saw you use makes no difference at all. REMEMBER the definition of a great woodworker. A great woodworker is one who can make masterpieces in someone else's shop using someone else's tools. Anyone who can only do well with the tools that they are used to is a lesser craftsman.

My whole approach to woodworking is not typical of what you will find here on the Burl. When most woodworkers visit the home of another woodworker, they usually want to go to see his shop and tools. I have little interest in their shops or their tools. I would rather see their den, living room, dining room, kitchen, etc. I am interested in their work. If I see they have done something very interesting, or very different, or very good, I ask what processes they used in making it, not the brand name of the tools they used.

HAVE FUN. FOCUS ON THE RESULTS , NOT THE TOOLS. THINK FOR YOURSELF. FOLLOWING THE CROWD WILL ONLY MAKE YOU A MEMBER OF THE CROWD. GO FOR "OUTSTANDING" INSTEAD. Whatever you do, don't believe me either. Try things out and test them for yourself. I believe you will always find that skills gained via practice will trump tools every day in every way. <<

If you made it this far and want to read more go here:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/burl/messages/?msg=502.1
You may have to register but it's free and spam free.

pete
 

froglips

New User
Jim Campbell
Ah, one of my favorite topics :)

You can cut fine with just about any saw. What I'd look at is how it feels in your hand.

Case in point. Joel's saw at Tools For Working Wood has a small/narrow and higher angled handle modeled more on 18th Century styles. The Lie Nielsen Independence saw is more 19th century. Somewhat more substantial.

The new Veritas is its own animal, but quite comfortable.

Starting out, I prefer (and suggest) a gents saw. They can be had for under $20 and give you a chance to learn many of the basics including sharpening. I've used at $10 Irwin from Home Depot as a learning tool. It dramatically shows how light a pressure one uses to cut. This saw won't cut worth a darn if you put much more than the lightest of pressure. Once you get the feel, its a whole new world!

For the money, I don't think you can go wrong with the Veritas. But, above that price point, you are really getting into personal preference and feel. Trying to get the saws in your hand is the best way to choose.

You also have the options such as progressive pitch and thin saw plates.

Another tip, while at Roy's school pop in upstairs and visit Edward Lebetkin at the Woodwrights Tool Store. He's got quite a number of older saws to pick from.

The MidWest Tool Collectors July Meeting is coming up too. A wonderful place to see, try and even buy a wide assortment of tools!

Having held way more saws than I care to disclose, I can say its a very personal thing. Much more than reviews or price can help.

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it till I come up with one better :)

Jim
 

bobby g

Bob
Corporate Member
I love my Lie Nielsen Independence dovetail saw. It's a "last one I'll buy" kind of tool. Even though I use a lot of power tools, all of my dovetails are cut by hand using this saw.

bobby g
 

Mike Davis

Mike
Corporate Member
I've always used a cheap gents saw, mostly because that's what I can afford. A few people have seen my work and think it is ok so I guess I have a valid opinion.

I'll tell you what made the bigest difference for me. Learning to sharpen a handsaw. It opened my eyes and made me more aware of the saw and its action. Now I don't have to put up with a dull saw nor do I have to accept that a saw has to cut a certain way. I can change it!

The guy Pete quoted must be one of my brothers that I never met. I think very much the same way.

I don't care if all you have is a saw fron a Swiss Army Knife, if you are determined to cut dovetails or make fine furniture you will work with what you have and keep trying till you master the skill.

I'll go one step further and suggest that you try to cut some dovetail joints without a saw. Do the whole job with your chisels. That will make you appreciate a sharp chisel.

OK, I recently was gifted a LN saw and I must say it cuts better than a Swiss Army Knife. Still don't know that I would spend the money for a new one though.
 

CarvedTones

Board of Directors, Vice President
Andy
Piling on in support of the gent's saw; it is what I use for my most accurate cuts by hand.
 

junquecol

Bruce
Senior User
Cecil Pierce (deceased),another Maine plane maker, used a HACKSAW to cut dovetails. Cecil had lost a thumb and a couple of fingers, so he couldn't hold a gents saw. But he could wrap those stubs around the handle of a hack saw. One of the main things to remember is that most of the cuts in dovetailing are RIPS. Most saws come from the factory with teeth for cross cuts instead. A few years back, FWW did a review of gent / dovetail saws, and they recommended one which at that time cost $9. Unfortunately, I don't remember the brand.
 

cptully

New User
Chris
While I no longer subscribe to the paper version of FWW, I absolutely love having a digital subscription! The Article that you are thinking of is Tool Test: Dovetail Saws from March/April 2006 by Chris Gochour.

The saw rated Best Overall and Best Value was the Crown from Highland Hardware (http:\\www.highlandhardware.com). One interesting note is that Chris also has a long post in the Tool Guide at FWW on restoring a resharpening a Dovetail saw and the detail pic of the Crown saw's teeth in the article Bruce mentions is very close to the detail pic of a finished restoration in Chris' resharpening tutorial. The Lie-Nielsen is perhaps a but closer to the resharpening result, but I'd rather buy the $19 (2006 price; it's gone up to $21.99 http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/8straightdovetailsaw.aspx) saw than the $75 saw myself...
 

DanR

New User
Dan
I think this is the one FWW reviewed. It is the one I have, although I bought it right before I moved into a tiny apartment with no garage (no, I have no idea why I was buying tools right before moving into an apartment with no garage, but I have a garage and a shop now):

It was issue 183 from 2006 (March / April): http://www.finewoodworking.com/toolguide/toolguideproduct.aspx?tab=_editor&id=26127

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/10straightdovetailsaw.aspx

Price: $19 (now $23 at Highland)
Blade: 10 in. long,
16 tpi
Back support:
Folded brass
Comments: The turned
handle on this saw feels good i n the hand, and its
rigid back makes the saw feel solid. Given its low
price, I was pleasantly surprised with how much
I liked this saw. The palm grip was comfortable
and made the saw easy to align with the cut and
to track while in the cut. The saw started well and
cut fast. It is my choice for best overa l l and best
value among the gent's saws.
 

cptully

New User
Chris
Dan our posts must have crossed paths on the web! You are correct. I have a PDF of the original article from 2006 up on my screen right now.
 

kooshball

David
Corporate Member
Thanks for all the quick replies and thanks to Eyekode for letting me borrow a Veritas saw to play with!

After putting the Veritas dovetail saw in my wife's hand we are of the opinion that the grip may be a little large, but for me it is fine. Does anyone know if there are any saws out there with smaller grips than the Veritas (I have read that the LN saw is almost the same size but what about all the others)?

Also, FYI I borrowed a gents saw this weekend as well and we both definitely prefer the pistol grip setup so we will go in that direction for now.

Thanks
 

BSHuff

New User
Brian
When you take the dovetail class Roy has a large assortment of dovetail saws. One of the early things he says is each bench has some different brands & designs of tools, I encourage you to trade and try different tools. So you might want to wait for the class to test drive the fleet of saws.

I have a set of veritas dovetail saws. I got the set of 3 cause it was the same price as one of the 'elite' saws. I figured it was a good entry point to learn with.

One thing on the veritas saws is that they give you all the critical dimensions with the saw in order to make your own custom handles for their saws if necessary. The design of saw makes it easy to swap out the handle pretty easily with one screw. Plus if it is her saw... you can sand down the existing handle to make it 'right' for her.
 

merrill77

Master Scrap Maker
Chris
When you take the dovetail class Roy has a large assortment of dovetail saws. One of the early things he says is each bench has some different brands & designs of tools, I encourage you to trade and try different tools. So you might want to wait for the class to test drive the fleet of saws.

That is excellent advice - try before you buy!

Myself, I favor a pull-cut saw - so I use a dozuki, which IIRC was $35 at woodcraft. I'm happy with it and it seems to do exactly what I tell it to do. My success with hand-cut dovetails is limited, but I don't blame the saw.
:eusa_thin

Chris
 

CarvedTones

Board of Directors, Vice President
Andy
One thing on the veritas saws is that they give you all the critical dimensions with the saw in order to make your own custom handles for their saws if necessary. The design of saw makes it easy to swap out the handle pretty easily with one screw. Plus if it is her saw... you can sand down the existing handle to make it 'right' for her.

This (click) would make for a saw grip that might turn the stomachs of purists, but you could use it to make a custom grip that you use as a template to cut one out of wood if the look bothers you/her.

I like a pistol grip for power, but I like the gent's grip better for precision because I stand more to the side and can lean right over the work to make sure I am on the line. When you tested saws, were you trying to stay on a line or just sawing at random placements?
 

JimmyC

New User
Jimmy

kooshball

David
Corporate Member
When you take the dovetail class Roy has a large assortment of dovetail saws. One of the early things he says is each bench has some different brands & designs of tools, I encourage you to trade and try different tools. So you might want to wait for the class to test drive the fleet of saws.

I have a set of veritas dovetail saws. I got the set of 3 cause it was the same price as one of the 'elite' saws. I figured it was a good entry point to learn with.

One thing on the veritas saws is that they give you all the critical dimensions with the saw in order to make your own custom handles for their saws if necessary. The design of saw makes it easy to swap out the handle pretty easily with one screw. Plus if it is her saw... you can sand down the existing handle to make it 'right' for her.

Actually, the main issue with the grip size is not the thickness but rather the distance between the horns. If the horns were closer together it would fit a bit better and be easier to place in the hand in the exact same way each time.

So I guess the question should be which saws have the closest horns?
 

Mike Davis

Mike
Corporate Member
Look at some of the antique saws upstairs over Roy's school.

Older tools seem to be a little smaller to me.
 
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