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I have read a number of threads, here and elsewhere, where someone lost a finger or part of one (or more), and without exception the person involved espoused the same safety practices mentioned throughout this thread. Life, in or out of the shop is full of distractions and we're all prone to momentary lapses in concentration, especially the experienced woodworker who has made thousands of safe cuts on his or her tablesaw. Let's face it, the word "accident" implies it was not a planned event, yet accidents happen. I don't consider myself paranoid by any means but the fact is accidents do happen, and with this one tool I feel more comfortable knowing it can't cut me, unless of course I turn off the brake.
Yes, to cut wet wood (and treated wood I think) it is becessary to turn it off. However, whenever I turn it off a little light comes on in my head to really focus because there is no safety net so to speak, but that's a level of concentration I cannot maintain for every single cut every time. For the record I did trip the brake once when I miscalculated the clearance over an aluminum miter fence while making a 45 degree cut. Regarding the brake's reaction time, I was hard-pressed to even see the nick it made on the fence - it was scary fast - a "now you see it, now you don't" event - no joke!!
Yes, I own(ed) a SawStop, and recently sold it because I didn't want to transport it crosscountry when we move. BTW it was the Contractors model and I've yet to meet a hardwood that bogged it down, using an appropriate feed rate, but I'm not a heavy-duty user either like some of you are. As soon as we resettle in AZ, the new model is #1 on my "to buy" list...so I voted in two categories.
Just my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. I believe the PRICE of the saw is far less then the COST if there is an accident, and even if the brake is never needed (which I hope), they seem to hold their resale value, because it is also an excellent saw, with or without the brake.
Yes, to cut wet wood (and treated wood I think) it is becessary to turn it off. However, whenever I turn it off a little light comes on in my head to really focus because there is no safety net so to speak, but that's a level of concentration I cannot maintain for every single cut every time. For the record I did trip the brake once when I miscalculated the clearance over an aluminum miter fence while making a 45 degree cut. Regarding the brake's reaction time, I was hard-pressed to even see the nick it made on the fence - it was scary fast - a "now you see it, now you don't" event - no joke!!
Yes, I own(ed) a SawStop, and recently sold it because I didn't want to transport it crosscountry when we move. BTW it was the Contractors model and I've yet to meet a hardwood that bogged it down, using an appropriate feed rate, but I'm not a heavy-duty user either like some of you are. As soon as we resettle in AZ, the new model is #1 on my "to buy" list...so I voted in two categories.
Just my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. I believe the PRICE of the saw is far less then the COST if there is an accident, and even if the brake is never needed (which I hope), they seem to hold their resale value, because it is also an excellent saw, with or without the brake.
I'm in the "If I were looking for a $3000 cabinet saw I'd give the SS a close look" camp. That being said I don't see myself ever spending that much for a single piece of equipment (given that I've got two mortgages, two kids to put through college, probably a wedding to pay for [someday] not to mention reitrement to save for) unless I happen to hit the Power Ball. I've got a great hybrid saw that does everything I need (and more) and can't think of any reason I'd need to buy a different one.
I guess I'm in the minority here and think that the SawStop technology is worth the extra money and will be included on the next saw I buy. I've seen their cabinet saws and they're top notch. Something that nobody has mentioned is the dust collection on the new one is way better than anything out there ...and it works with a simple cheap shop vac too.
Let's put the lawyer/political/taking my rights away bruhaha aside and talk real life blood/bone/tendon/nerve/disability stuff here because if I have a choice it's going to be do everything I possibly can to keep my fingers and hands intact and functional. My left hand and arm are weakened from a neck injury so I can appreciate not having full function and miss it. Following safety rules and common sense are the most important things as far as I'm concerned and in 35 years of woodworking I've been good and lucky. Hopefully I'll never get to see how well it works but doodoo happens. I would hate to have it happen and know I could have made it much less severe.
In the ~4yrs I've been a member here we've had 3 or 4 serious tablesaw accidents within our North Carolina Woodworker community that I remember...maybe more so please correct me if you want. If you do the math that's a very high accident rate per number of tablesaws spread within our active membership. So high that if we had that happen in my industry (Medical Device Manufacturing) the FDA would shut us down and we would probably go out of business from the lawsuits. There is a study that is in pre publication that estimates that there are 31,500 non-occupational related tablesaw injuries in the US each year. This is a lot less the the 60,000 number that's thrown around but it's still amazingly high. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100113172150.htm) The scary thing about the results of the study is that the rate is increasing and the number involving children is very high. Makes me wonder if this is the result of the dissapearance of school shop programs? Also makes me wonder what you folks with kids are doing to keep your shop safe. I know I sure did my share of Guerrilla woodworking as a young kid at a neighbor's house where the dad worked second shift.
If you missed the safety class in the 8th grade or need a refresher (I think we ALL need a refresher!) one of our great members, Tom Hintz, has a good one here:
http://www.newwoodworker.com/basic/usetsbasics.html
Anyway...pay attention to what you're doing and keep the blood on the inside.
Let's put the lawyer/political/taking my rights away bruhaha aside and talk real life blood/bone/tendon/nerve/disability stuff here because if I have a choice it's going to be do everything I possibly can to keep my fingers and hands intact and functional. My left hand and arm are weakened from a neck injury so I can appreciate not having full function and miss it. Following safety rules and common sense are the most important things as far as I'm concerned and in 35 years of woodworking I've been good and lucky. Hopefully I'll never get to see how well it works but doodoo happens. I would hate to have it happen and know I could have made it much less severe.
In the ~4yrs I've been a member here we've had 3 or 4 serious tablesaw accidents within our North Carolina Woodworker community that I remember...maybe more so please correct me if you want. If you do the math that's a very high accident rate per number of tablesaws spread within our active membership. So high that if we had that happen in my industry (Medical Device Manufacturing) the FDA would shut us down and we would probably go out of business from the lawsuits. There is a study that is in pre publication that estimates that there are 31,500 non-occupational related tablesaw injuries in the US each year. This is a lot less the the 60,000 number that's thrown around but it's still amazingly high. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100113172150.htm) The scary thing about the results of the study is that the rate is increasing and the number involving children is very high. Makes me wonder if this is the result of the dissapearance of school shop programs? Also makes me wonder what you folks with kids are doing to keep your shop safe. I know I sure did my share of Guerrilla woodworking as a young kid at a neighbor's house where the dad worked second shift.
If you missed the safety class in the 8th grade or need a refresher (I think we ALL need a refresher!) one of our great members, Tom Hintz, has a good one here:
http://www.newwoodworker.com/basic/usetsbasics.html
Anyway...pay attention to what you're doing and keep the blood on the inside.
A sSawStop is a top quality saw. If you've never seen one, go check it out at Klingspor. Essentially, you're paying ~$1000 premium over a saw like a PM2000 for the safety feature. Is that worth it? I guess it depends on many factors. For someone just starting out in this hobby, that's an awful lot of money to spend on a single tool. For that kind of money, you can get a Grizzly cabinet saw, 6" jointer, DeWalt 735 planer, drill press, router and a bunch of accessories. But, if you have an established shop and you're looking to upgrade for both the quality and the brake, it's not an insurmountable figure...we're not talking about a 12" Euro slider here.
I plan to do woodworking for another 40 years, at least, I hope I'll be able to, but considering how many geezers hang out here, that's a pretty good bet :rolf: Translated, that's a $25 insurance/ year. Is that worth it? I don't think I'll ever have a table saw accident when I'm paying attention. I spend quite a bit of time making sure the outfeed table is clean, featherboards are in place, use a splitter, push sticks/ grippers are nearby etc. But sometimes my mind wanders. Ever make box joints? It's mind numbing. My mind was already halfway into assembly when I realized how dangerous this was, I had come very close to swapping one board for another with the blade spinning less than 1/8" away from my fingers. I shut off the saw and took a 20 minute break. It's for those moment the brake would be valuable. Plus, I'm cheap
I'd hate to ruin a blade and have to buy a new cartridge, so that would force me to be DOUBLE safe
There have been arguments that people would work less safely because of the brake technology. As Colonel Potter would say: Horsehocky! I am willing to bet that if you went to every SawStop owner and asked them to put their fingers into the spinning blade, they'd say no. Even if you offered them $250 (plus the cost of the brake/ cartridge). Just because my car has airbags doesn't mean I'm using trees instead of the brake either.
I think it's great we have a choice to get this safety feature, and I don't understand the controversy. Unless you do this for a living, every dollar you spend on woodworking is basically "unnecessary". We all value different things. Some people happily spend $25,000/ year on hitting a ball with a stick. Others feel compelled to go beyond Norm's fashion line and buy Armani suits, silk shirts and crocodile leather belts. Some go on exotic trips around the world, and others convert their bathroom into a luxury spa with sauna. Me, I splurge on coffee and tools.
I plan to do woodworking for another 40 years, at least, I hope I'll be able to, but considering how many geezers hang out here, that's a pretty good bet :rolf: Translated, that's a $25 insurance/ year. Is that worth it? I don't think I'll ever have a table saw accident when I'm paying attention. I spend quite a bit of time making sure the outfeed table is clean, featherboards are in place, use a splitter, push sticks/ grippers are nearby etc. But sometimes my mind wanders. Ever make box joints? It's mind numbing. My mind was already halfway into assembly when I realized how dangerous this was, I had come very close to swapping one board for another with the blade spinning less than 1/8" away from my fingers. I shut off the saw and took a 20 minute break. It's for those moment the brake would be valuable. Plus, I'm cheap
I'd hate to ruin a blade and have to buy a new cartridge, so that would force me to be DOUBLE safe There have been arguments that people would work less safely because of the brake technology. As Colonel Potter would say: Horsehocky! I am willing to bet that if you went to every SawStop owner and asked them to put their fingers into the spinning blade, they'd say no. Even if you offered them $250 (plus the cost of the brake/ cartridge). Just because my car has airbags doesn't mean I'm using trees instead of the brake either.
I think it's great we have a choice to get this safety feature, and I don't understand the controversy. Unless you do this for a living, every dollar you spend on woodworking is basically "unnecessary". We all value different things. Some people happily spend $25,000/ year on hitting a ball with a stick. Others feel compelled to go beyond Norm's fashion line and buy Armani suits, silk shirts and crocodile leather belts. Some go on exotic trips around the world, and others convert their bathroom into a luxury spa with sauna. Me, I splurge on coffee and tools.
For me it would be a matter of cost as well. Of course if the SS was priced the same as another comparable saw I would buy the SS, if it was $250 more I probably would, but for a $1000? no, I probably wouldn't. As for the contractor saw with "only" 1.75 hp? my dewalt hybrid has the same power and not once has it let me down. Full height cuts in every thing I have thrown at it. Unless you are trying to make money by working as fast as possible than I really don't see the need for more power (hush my mouth!) Also, when I have had a piece bind on the blade (pre splitter days) I was able to hold it long enough to hit the stop button. So, if you can get the SS safety within budget on a contractor saw as opposed to spending the extra money on another 3 hp, then maybe the SS is the way to go. From what I have seen, irrespective of the safety features, it is a good saw.
My mind was already halfway into assembly when I realized how dangerous this was, I had come very close to swapping one board for another with the blade spinning less than 1/8" away from my fingers. I shut off the saw and took a 20 minute break. It's for those moment the brake would be valuable. Plus, I'm cheap
That right there is one move I try to practice and practice over and over again. Any time it seems "close" or suspect, I stop. Last week my slider threw a strip of wood into the wall. Missed me, didn't break anything, and I was not doing anything reckless. Still, I decided it was time for a break. All the power tools were turned off.
Where's the "wish I had one a few years ago to prevent 'the incident'" entry?
Even with my past experience with a table saw, I still wouldn't buy one. They're just too expensive. Ideal for high school shop class or similar. But for home use - the 6" rule, and plenty of RESPECT for the tool should get the average user by.
Even with my past experience with a table saw, I still wouldn't buy one. They're just too expensive. Ideal for high school shop class or similar. But for home use - the 6" rule, and plenty of RESPECT for the tool should get the average user by.
I am a newcomer to fine woodworking, and I did not have a table saw. After much research, I (actually, my wife) decided on a SS. Good saw, added safety feature to cover times when even the best safety practices fail (ever have a push stick break?). I bought it a few months ago and it is still sitting in the shed in the box waiting for my shop to be finished. As I get older, safety is more and more a priority. Table saws without brakes have been around and in use for many years, and will probably continue, but accidents happen and if I can spend a bit more money to reduce the possibility, then I am happy to do it. Some decide that the cost for this safety feature is too high. We all get to choose how to spend our money. There were a couple of posts about some "underhanded political introduction" that I am not familiar with, but it seems like old news, and I would not reject a safety feature due to something like that - but again, my choice.
I wonder what price point would be acceptable (to most) for the safety brake - like if it was an option you could buy?
I wonder what price point would be acceptable (to most) for the safety brake - like if it was an option you could buy?
I have one. I was toying with the Grizzley 1023 models when my wife steered me towards the SawStop. I've never seen more vitriole directed towards this thing. If you don't want the thing, don't buy the thing, but to many people seem to think the only way they can justify their decision to buy something else is to run the SawStop and the users through the muck.
Keeping your hand away from the blade is of course the key. I don't even want to put the blade brake to the test. HOWEVER, every single serious table saw accident I've read about here or elsewhere hasn't been as simple as running your hand into the blade. They almost always involve some kickback event that causes the hand to slip or be flipped by the work piece into the blade. While most of us haven't ever suffered a table saw blade contact, I suspect most of us have had some sort of kickback experience.
Thank you, I'll keep the blade brake as a backup.
The saw is much nicer in my opinion than what I had intended to buy anyhow.
No Klingspor discount on it, but shipping from the Hickory store to my shop was only $50 substantially less than what WoodCraft wanted to send it up from Matthews.
Keeping your hand away from the blade is of course the key. I don't even want to put the blade brake to the test. HOWEVER, every single serious table saw accident I've read about here or elsewhere hasn't been as simple as running your hand into the blade. They almost always involve some kickback event that causes the hand to slip or be flipped by the work piece into the blade. While most of us haven't ever suffered a table saw blade contact, I suspect most of us have had some sort of kickback experience.
Thank you, I'll keep the blade brake as a backup.
The saw is much nicer in my opinion than what I had intended to buy anyhow.
No Klingspor discount on it, but shipping from the Hickory store to my shop was only $50 substantially less than what WoodCraft wanted to send it up from Matthews.
As a father and husband, I couldn't afford NOT to buy a SawStop.
After much research/reading/use, I've found that the Contractor Saw (w-52" fence, and aftermarket mobile base) was an outstanding tool at a reasonable price. I'm not surprised at the 0% 'regrets' result in the (admittedly small) poll.
The two best woodworkers I've known (~75yr experience between them before their passing, including 2 decades of teaching woodworking in schools & colleges) were missing a few knuckles to tablesaws despite their well-honed safety skills.
After much research/reading/use, I've found that the Contractor Saw (w-52" fence, and aftermarket mobile base) was an outstanding tool at a reasonable price. I'm not surprised at the 0% 'regrets' result in the (admittedly small) poll.
The two best woodworkers I've known (~75yr experience between them before their passing, including 2 decades of teaching woodworking in schools & colleges) were missing a few knuckles to tablesaws despite their well-honed safety skills.
Well said, Bas. Post trimmed.
Again, I heartily recommend the Sawstop Contractor w-upgraded fence- for overall safety [riving knife, blade brake, and quality of guards etc], dust collection, overall solid construction, and relatively competive price c/w other contractor saws.
(no, I don't any financial conflict of interest, nor ties to SawStop):icon_thum
Again, I heartily recommend the Sawstop Contractor w-upgraded fence- for overall safety [riving knife, blade brake, and quality of guards etc], dust collection, overall solid construction, and relatively competive price c/w other contractor saws.
(no, I don't any financial conflict of interest, nor ties to SawStop):icon_thum
If I were in the market for a table saw, and was going to spend the money a sawstop costs, I'd spend a little more and get one of these;
http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/format-table-saws/sliding-table-saw-k3-winner.html&zoom=true
http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/format-table-saws/sliding-table-saw-k3-winner.html&zoom=true
I'd buy a sawstop because of the quality of the saw, brake being a non factor. I would, however, then have to measure it's cost against other saws including ones with a sliding table which, having had one for 34 years, is something I never regret having.
Bill
Bill
I really have enjoyed reading everyone's responses. The biggest reason I started this thread was that I always see in other posts someone meantioning SawStop and afew post after voiceing some strong feelings about it. I wanted to centralize it and see what people think as well as get some stats. I would like to get more votes. I don't think we have a true representation yet as the numbers have swung from one way to another, maybe at about 100 or 150 votes. I don't know how many active members we have but it seems feasible.
[MOUSE]KEEP VOTING:icon_thum[/MOUSE]
[MOUSE]KEEP VOTING:icon_thum[/MOUSE]
I would not own a SawStop, mostly because its not a cure all like everyone thinks. When it comes to upgrading I won't even consider this on my list. This saw won't make stupid smarter!
Is this saw safer?, YES......but if you practice safety from the start you shouldn't need this saw.
I feel that it isn't worth the money, maybe if they included the saw blade and the brakes that get ruined when it kicks in.
That is just my observation.
Is this saw safer?, YES......but if you practice safety from the start you shouldn't need this saw.
I feel that it isn't worth the money, maybe if they included the saw blade and the brakes that get ruined when it kicks in.
That is just my observation.
I have owned a SawStop for 2 years and have absolutely no regrets. The saw is extremely well made and a pleasure to use. Prior to this Saw, I owned a Jet Cabinet saw, Jet Hybrid saw and a very cheap Delta contractor saw.
One of the reasons I bought this saw was because of the safety features. I find it interesting that some people would comment that as long as you are careful, there is no need for this technology. That's why it's called an accident, nobody really goes into the shop saying "Well, I think I'll cut a finger off today". It happens to the best of us, no matter how safe we are.
Do these safety features make me less careful in the shop? **** no, a spinning blade can still be very dangerous. But I do enjoy the peace of mind knowing if I were to ever have an accident, it might just wind up a small nick instead of an amputation and plastic surgery.
One of the reasons I bought this saw was because of the safety features. I find it interesting that some people would comment that as long as you are careful, there is no need for this technology. That's why it's called an accident, nobody really goes into the shop saying "Well, I think I'll cut a finger off today". It happens to the best of us, no matter how safe we are.
Do these safety features make me less careful in the shop? **** no, a spinning blade can still be very dangerous. But I do enjoy the peace of mind knowing if I were to ever have an accident, it might just wind up a small nick instead of an amputation and plastic surgery.
If I were in the market for a table saw, and was going to spend the money a sawstop costs, I'd spend a little more and get one of these;
http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/format-table-saws/sliding-table-saw-k3-winner.html&zoom=true
Actually, I have the Hammer's bigger brother. My model isn't the newest, but it has a LOT of similarities.
The sliding table is a plus and simplifies straight line ripping, repeating cross cuts, etc.
One thing I do like about the Felder that I am unaware of any of the "regular" US saws having is an electric brake. I believe the rule/requirement is that when you press the off switch on European saws the blade must come to a complete stop within 10 seconds. This is a nice feature to have when you see a scrap getting ready to be "ejected".
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