Handplane + Sandpaper on glass notes

[froglips]

I'm a trial and error kind of learner. Sure, I could "READ" or "ASK", but I prefer to touch the stove to see if its hot...... then touch it to see if its still hot...... wash, rise, repeat......

As part of the Hillsborough Orange Woodworkers Meetup, we have been tuning up metal bodied hand planes using various sandpapers on glass.

The float glass is 16x28 and 3/8 thick. In hind sight, I'd have preferred 7"x 25" 1/2"

Lessons Learned: The Quick Version:

• use 80 then 120 grit Ceramic papers (for plane sole)
• 3M 77 Spray adhesive to attach paper
• clean paper with rubber erasers

1. Tape does not work too well
We tried using painters tape, duct tape and sheathing tape to hold down the paper. It worked poorly and lead to more lifting of the paper than was worth the trouble.

We taped both long edges of the papers, which also meant they couldn't be used to flatten the backs of the irons....

Also, the duct and sheathing tape were a really big pain to remove and clean up afterward.

Don't recommend this.

2. 3M Spray Adhesive 77
Round three, we switched to this. Night and day better. Spray the back of the paper and the glass, lay it down starting in the middle of the paper. Then use a J-Roller to smooth out the paper and remove any bubbles.

This adhesive cleans up like a dream with paint thinner/mineral spirits. When we added oil, I use a three part cleanup process. First heat/mineral spirits to remove the paper, dish soap to remove the oil, mineral spirits to remove the glue and lastly ammonia to clean the glass.

3. Lubricate the paper
Dry, worked ok, but the paper clogged quickly.

Water, ok, but led to rust on many of the planes. Also, giving a group of MATURE ADULTS spray bottles of water leads to just what you'd expect

Mineral Oil, by far the best of the bunch. But, we used a lot of oil. It soaked through the paper and under the edges causing the glue bond to fail.

May try WD-40 and some other lightweight oils. The oil breaking the glue bond is a problem that I hope to sort out.

If you use oil, use it sparingly. Just enough to coat the paper.

4. Types of paper
We are still playing with this. Silicon Carbide papers, while great and sharp, fracture quickly and become dull and clogged. Not a good choice.

Aluminum Oxide was ok, still cloggy and slow cutting.

We didn't have any Zirconia-alumina (sp) paper.

One of our members turned us onto Ceramic grit papers, wow. Night and day. This paper cut fast and did not fracture or clog like the other papers. Draw back is its expensive. But, we may be able to reuse it much longer.

Ceramic paper doesn't like high heat, which we'd not have an issue with.

5. Clean the paper
Attempts to clean the paper met with limited success. Daubbing with paper towels and brushing off were ok.

I've recently (this morning) tested using pencil erasers and wow. The paper I was planning to throw out is now cutting great. I'm going to experiment with the bigger erasers they sell for this purpose. Plus, you can brush off the eraser stuff easily.

6. Water to hold paper down
No luck with this. Probably has to do with the paper we chose. These are cut up sanding belts (thanks Mr. PChristy). A few attempts with wet-dry sheets on the glass didn't work well. Not sure what we are doing wrong here, but it seems to work on TV.....

More to come!

Also, happy to hear from anyone who has thoughts or suggestions.

Thanks,
Jim

 

[GregSmith]

Nice write up Jim.:icon_thum I've been using the adhesive backed paper I got in a Klingspor bargain box, but they didn't have any at the show this year. Works pretty good, but I'm running out -plus I'm limited to the random grits and types from the box. Thanks for saving me some trial and error.

Two questions - 1. Where'd you get the glass? 2. How much did it cost?

 

[froglips]

Glad you found it useful. We haven't tried any PSA papers. I have some in the shop, might throw them in the mix.

My experience with PSA is you have to lay it down very carefully. The spray adhesive has some give until it dries. Which is good for folks like me who are easily distracted by falling leaves and thoughts about cheese puffs

Got it from a local glass shop, Hillsborough Glass Co. Its been too long, I don't recall how much. Its not much though.

While on the subject, make sure they smooth the edges or you are in for paper cuts beyond comprehension!

Jim

 

[gator]

For my 'Scary Sharp' sharpening, I use 3/4" melamine boards instead of glass. It started when I did it for the first time and had some melamine scraps in the shop. I found it works well and is as smooth as using glass.

George

 

[CarvedTones]

I use a fake marble floor tile from the BORG. I picked up a T square up front and took it back to the tiles to make sure the type I was getting was flat; some aren't. Spray adhesive is the way to go, but you are working way too hard to get it off; the sticker removers ("Goof Off", I think, but there are a few brands) take it right off with little effort. Don't ever use the sticker remover on wood that you plan to put a finish on though (DAMHIKT ).

 

[James Davis]

For lubrication I use Windex. Strange as it may sound, when I first started using this method I didn't have a spray bottle (Too lazy to go get one) so I grabbed the Windex I had and loved the way it worked. It dries quickly so rust has not been a problem. Although I do wipe it off as soon as I get done.

I generally use scraps of tile that I picked up off of job sites when they were available. I have not tried the melamine but I have used MDF when it was the easiest to get to. It worked great. There are some who use MDF with various grits and mineral oil tho hone with, I have not tried this yet.

One thing you might try for cleaning the paper, try wrapping a rare earth magnet in a paper towel or rag and pass this over the paper. It tends to pick up the filings and does a pretty good job of cleaning up the mess. Just don't wait too long before you do this or the gunk gets gummed up in the paper.

When you find a good way to flatten the backs of plane irons please send them my way. Flattening backs is the main reason I don't have many sharp planes and chisels in my shop. I get easily distracted.

I have been reading about the Meet-ups and wanting to attend, but SWMBO
always seems to have better plans.:rotflm:
Just a few random thoughts,
James

 

[02blues]

my .02 cents
No good advice. I did like the sand papaer on glass method though. Found an article which I am sure you read in FWW a while back on this topic. Ended up switching to Japanese water stones which to me seems easier but requires more of an investment.

02blues/ john ccasion1

 

[Travis Porter]

Be careful when you buy the 77 adhesive. Specifically, check the dates on it because when it gets old, it doesn't work well. DAMHIKT

 

[Len]

I have a 60lb chunk of granite, both sides polished flat and parallel, I picked up from a retiriing stone cutter years ago.

Very nice for 'scary sharp' work and squaring up sides to bottoms.

 

[DavidF]

I use the DMT diamond bench stones for truing up the bottoms of planes. I have the black and the red. Of course I now use the the Worksharp to put an edge on the blades:gar-Bi

 

[woodArtz]

... Also, giving a group of MATURE ADULTS spray bottles of water leads to just what you'd expect

Tip: I started wearing a rain coat for the second meet-up... problem solved!

:rotflm:

 

[Gofor]

For sharpening the irons, I just use a spray bottle and lay a full sheet of wet/dry paper on a granite block (used glass before).

However, for flattening a plane sole, the best I found was the heavy cloth backed emery sheets. (80 grit for most and then down to 120) on a flat surface. The cloth is stiff enough that you can hold it in place with your hand. Altho working dry, Its messy (black graphite powder everywhere, but it brushes off the cloth easitly with a shop hand broom), and it will use up few sheets if the sole is in bad shape. It is also a slow process.

It took me 3 days to flatten an old #6 Stanley, but just a couple hours for a Stanley block plane (a new $30 Borg model with adjustable mouth).

Hope someone has a friendlier idea. I have heard a belt sander is the way to go.

Go

 

[froglips]

Update from the field!

We tried windex. It worked great for about 15 minutes then dissolved the spray adhesive bond. Dang nabbit.

But, this lead us to a new place that worked quite well. We used ceramic belts (80 then 120 grit) dry. Suddenly, no more mess and no more failed glue.

We combined this with the recently remembered, and seemingly obvious use of gum/pencil/rubber erasers to clean the paper. While its common to use on powered sanders, it never dawned on us to use it on the paper-on-glass.

So, I'm extremely happy to report that:
- 80 and 120 grit ceramic papers (sanding belts)
-- spary adhered with 3M 77 spray adhesive
--- used dry
---- cleaned with erasers and a brush
----- spreading the wear of the paper evenly over the paper
is a very speedy and successful solution to flattening plane soles (ta-dah!)

We also discovered something rather important. Spread the plane over the entire paper. We were not doing this and kept creating planes with a convex sole along its length. What we missed was the outer edges of the paper had fresh grit. So as we drifted from the middle out to the edges, we'd remove more metal along the outer edges of the sole, leading to a high spot in the middle.

I will say that this overall approach has some labor and financial benefits. Cleaning the glass of old glue and oils was a chore. It invariably led to having to reapply new paper. The papers weren't dull, they were just soaked in (oil, windex, water, etc) and wouldn't work with the glue.

The dry paper also is so much easier to clean and use. Water and oil both made a royal mess that required a lot of effort to refresh.

At least for us, we have found stellar deals on sanding belts. They have much stronger backings than paper and seem to take a real beating.

Thats it for this weeks lessons leaned. Hope this helps folks who might care to try this.

Jim

 

[Travis Porter]

I think I will stick with the Tormek. It can be a bit messy at times, but I have gotten used to it.

How are you going to sharpen that router plane?

Update from the field!

We tried windex. It worked great for about 15 minutes then dissolved the spray adhesive bond. Dang nabbit.

But, this lead us to a new place that worked quite well. We used ceramic belts (80 then 120 grit) dry. Suddenly, no more mess and no more failed glue.

We combined this with the recently remembered, and seemingly obvious use of gum/pencil/rubber erasers to clean the paper. While its common to use on powered sanders, it never dawned on us to use it on the paper-on-glass.

So, I'm extremely happy to report that:
- 80 and 120 grit ceramic papers (sanding belts)
-- spary adhered with 3M 77 spray adhesive
--- used dry
---- cleaned with erasers and a brush
----- spreading the wear of the paper evenly over the paper
is a very speedy and successful solution to flattening plane soles (ta-dah!)

We also discovered something rather important. Spread the plane over the entire paper. We were not doing this and kept creating planes with a convex sole along its length. What we missed was the outer edges of the paper had fresh grit. So as we drifted from the middle out to the edges, we'd remove more metal along the outer edges of the sole, leading to a high spot in the middle.

I will say that this overall approach has some labor and financial benefits. Cleaning the glass of old glue and oils was a chore. It invariably led to having to reapply new paper. The papers weren't dull, they were just soaked in (oil, windex, water, etc) and wouldn't work with the glue.

The dry paper also is so much easier to clean and use. Water and oil both made a royal mess that required a lot of effort to refresh.

At least for us, we have found stellar deals on sanding belts. They have much stronger backings than paper and seem to take a real beating.

Thats it for this weeks lessons leaned. Hope this helps folks who might care to try this.

Jim