Classified Ad Issue

[McRabbet]

Bluthart posted four Classified Ads today to sell four different small lots of wood in different species. In my opinion, they are commercial ads and should be in the Wood Forum as special sale items. It appears that posters were not reading the Welcome message, so I have changed it to place emphasis on the site Ad Policy that Commercial Ads are not permitted.

Should we close his 4 ads and ask him to re-post a "special deal" in the Wood forum? The prices appear to be bargains, but they violate our policy. Comments?

 

[froglips]

I saw the new classified welcome message, very effective!

Lets hope it gets their attention. Next step is to send a guy in a gorilla suit to their homes with a copy of the policy and a bull horn....

I don't know bluthart. His profile says hes a Police Officer. I see he's been selling wood on and off over the past year. Took at look at his post history, couldn't find anything commercial like.

I'll defer to you on this one.

Jim

 

[TracyP]

I know Brian personally and know that he collected wood for several years, he collected so much he has it stored in friends garages and has been trying for over a year to just get rid of it at a bargain for us. I really don't see his ads as commercial, but see where they could pose a problem given the rules of the classifieds. I like the welcome message change and know that Brian would see no harm in closing his ads and asking him to repost them in the wood forum.

 

[McRabbet]

I know Brian personally and know that he collected wood for several years, he collected so much he has it stored in friends garages and has been trying for over a year to just get rid of it at a bargain for us. I really don't see his ads as commercial, but see where they could pose a problem given the rules of the classifieds. I like the welcome message change and know that Brian would see no harm in closing his ads and asking him to repost them in the wood forum.

Tracy,

Would you be kind enough to send him a PM to ask him to repost them in the Wood Forum and make certain that they are a "For Members Only" special? He can also delete them and his pictures should post allright in the Forum.

Thanks. I didn't want to take any specific action because I couldn't really tell if this was a commercial deal or not (it sorta looked like he had bought a special lot of wood and was reselling for profit). I'm looking out for the interests of our members and for our paid advertisers.

Rob

 

[TracyP]

Tracy,

Would you be kind enough to send him a PM to ask him to repost them in the Wood Forum and make certain that they are a "For Members Only" special? He can also delete them and his pictures should post allright in the Forum.

Thanks. I didn't want to take any specific action because I couldn't really tell if this was a commercial deal or not (it sorta looked like he had bought a special lot of wood and was reselling for profit). I'm looking out for the interests of our members and for our paid advertisers.

Rob

I will contact him later today after I get caugh tup a little at work.

 

[toolman]

I will be the Red headed stepchild on this as in past.

Our Policy on this is:

Ad content must relate to woodworking, tools, wood and wood products, accessories for woodworking equipment or workshop items. Members may use the Classified Section for one-time sale of woodworking items they make, but may not market production items for profit.

I looked at our Policy and when I get to the commercial part I stop. Why because I am not commercial or selling wood for profit.. So if I want to sale some of my wood that I have to much of then I would put it in the classified ads.

A week ago a member selling wood 4 or so types was allow to sale in the classified ads. Now a another member is selling wood 4 types this week and he can not??????

Is one member liked better than the other????

Looks that way..

If I have some wood that I need to sell, I will go to Craigslist or ebay I know if I list it there I will get it in the right place with out a e-mail or a PM telling me you can not list it here, but others can!

Just my $.02

 

[Travis Porter]

Chad, I am read headed as well. How is it commercial?

 

[TracyP]

No contact has been made to date. I want this thread to come to a close before I make contact.

 

[McRabbet]

Okay, some clarification. A month or so ago, we re-wrote the Classified Ad Policy to preclude Commercial Ads and encouraged our commercial members that are cutting / milling / drying wood for profit to post their "Member Only" specials in the Wood Forum (examples are Jeff Mills, Ivey, Saw4you, Kyle among others). When I saw Bluthart's four Ads, I was not sure if he was a member that cut wood for profit or not, so I did not take any action other than to start this thread trying to find out if is was commercial or not and suggesting that his sales be moved to the Wood Forum. In my opinion (shared I suspect by most of you), if a member accumulates a quantity of wood that is excess to his needs and decides to sell it off in a one time sale, then the Classified Ad can be appropriate means to sell it. It looks like Bluthart is in that category -- he is not a commercial seller.

However, there is still a nagging issue here -- there is no way to tell if he is commercial or not. We need to think and act beyond our personal knowledge and ask ourselves if it is fair to commercial sellers (like Carolina Lumber Sourcing or Rick DiNardo of The Moulding Source who pay for ad space) to have these ads running for free. In order to be consistent, I would prefer to see all of our "Wood For Sale" by members posted in the Wood Forum and they should be marked "for members only" and should meet the other criteria we included in the Policy Statement (provide a discount or a contribution to NCWW).

One last point -- both the Classified and Wood postings provide a benefit to our members. Our most exceptional member is Tom Hintz who has posted many tools and accessories for sale in the Classified Ads even though we know he is profiting, but the incredible discount he gives (to members) and the contributions he makes to the NCWW offset any criticism one might make. Everyone wins in his situation even some might think it is a violation of our policy.

My bottom line -- I'd prefer to see Bluthart's wood in the Wood forum, if only for consistent treatment on our part. We need to remove any ambiguity and about the only thing left is to not allow wood to be sold in the Classifieds.

 

[Bas]

Rob, this is a tough one, and I can see your logic. But, there are many sides to this.

Let's start with your example about Tom Hintz. Tom's web site is commercial, he reviews tools for a living. But, he is not a professional tool _retailer_. You can't order any tools from him, he has what he has, and you have to get lucky to be there first. I have no issue whatsoever with him advertising in the classifieds. But, like you said, the word "commercial" is definitely vague here, and probably a bad way to distinguish between seller types.

If we drive all wood sales to the Wood forum, we make it tougher for our members to sell their excess lumber. It has to be done via PMs or post replies, which isn't a good thing. While it's important that we are fair to our paying advertisers, it's equally important that we take care of our members.

One thing we haven't talked about is that wood suppliers & sawyers get a FREE listing here on NCWW (under "Woodworking in NC"). Individuals who post in the Classified don't get that. That certainly levels the playing field a bit. Keep in mind that the "advertising" part via the Classifieds only lasts while your ad is fresh. Your entry drops off the front page as new items are posted. By contrast, the sidebar ads are there all the time.

Another thing to consider is the commercial sale of things other than lumber. I just bought a large supply of drawer slides and I may want to sell a few boxes via the Classifieds. No problem. But what if I bought a pallet of them and I posted an ad every week for a box? Would Klingspor complain this is unfair because I get free Ad space for something they sell? I can see the logic in that argument.

Bottom line: I think we should continue to allow the sale of wood via the classifieds, provided
(a) the seller is not listed as a sawyer or wood supplier under "Woodworking in NC"
(b) users cannot order specific quantities or species, this is a one time sale of a fixed lot
(c) this is a sale to an individual, not a group sale

This keeps our full-time saywers (like saw4you) and incidental sawyers (like Jeff) in the Wood forum, while allowing bluthart to post to the classifieds. Will some people try to circumvent the spirit of the policy? Probably. We can deal with those on an individual basis. A simple addition such as "The staff reserves the right to remove any advertisement from the site" to the policy will take care of that.

Note that this also covers Tom Hintz' situation. You cannot order specific products, and it's offered to individuals. Not quite the same as a retail store selling power tools.

My $0.02.

 

[froglips]

Upon further review, I think bluthart's ads do not violate the letter of the policy.

Sounds like we first need a clear, quantifiable definition of Commercial.

One good thing about our staff is we see trends. Rob noticed something out of the ordinary. I think for the rare few who will try to sneak past the rules, we are likely to catch them.

One technical option would be to come up with user profile field(s) that commercial members can check.

** WARNING: Long semi-stream of consciousness follows **

We could also extend that flag to members who run Schools or Stores. Tom Hintz, Tom Ferone, Bill Anderson and Asheville Hardware come to mind.

While Tom Hintz isn't a tool retailer, his profession supplies him with what he is reselling here.

In exchange for their opt in on the flag, we offer them limited advertising features (which they mostly have already, but loosely defined). Maybe add special user designation and/or help them with a more vendor like signature. Tom Ferone's Freud signature comes to mind as a great example.

My personal opinion, I would rather see something letting me know a member is speaking from a commercial perspective. Our commercially tied members have not abused our site, so I really don't want to come off as trying to give them a Scarlet Letter.

While not as obvious, by doing it this way, we also share with our broader community that we are not playing favorites. In exchange for a commercial perspective and special offers, we are giving them some extra features. But, its all done in full public view.

Alas, to further confuse the issue.... what if Jeff decides to sell off some gently used router bits. Its not wood. I think one answer here are sub-categories of commercial user fields.

Commercial Interests:

• Wood
• Tools & Equip
• Classes & Schools
• Retail Stores
• Vendor
• Product Reviewer
• Other

Programatically, if Jeff has opted to check "Commercial:Wood", we could gently block his attempt to post wood in the Classified Ad, but allow his entry in Sawyers. Then if he wanted to sell his router bits, no prob.

In Tom Hintz case, I'd say he is Commercial: Product Reviewer.

Jim