Refacing Kitchen Cabinets

[cubicdissection]

So normally I make very small stuff (puzzles and boxes) but we are putting in granite counters and I'm thinking about refacing the cabinets in our kitchen.

Planning on a very basic shaker style, no decorative edges at all, clear finished maple. I'm looking at these things and from what I can tell it's a frame with a center panel and a couple holes drilled in it. How tough can it be? Anything I need to know? Wondering if this is one of those "trickier than it looks" things.

Here's my kitchen and the style doors I was planning on making:

 

[Steve W]

Eric,

I'd use plywood for the panels. You can either use something like Spaceballs to keep 'em in there tight or glue them in (in theory, plywood won't change dimension seasonally). I let mine float the last time I did kitchen cabinets and they rattled all the time.

You may want to consider veneering the front surfaces of the cabinets underneath so that they match the wood. It looks like you have Euro-style frameless cabinets, if so, you'll only need to get 3/4" band veneer.

When I did the drawers, I used a dovetail jig to make the boxes and attached the fronts to the boxes once the drawers were in place. Consider if the drawers you have now are "good enough" for now is the time to replace them if they aren't.

If your countertops come off the cabinets with no breakage you'll be in good shape. Otherwise, you'll need to put in new stretchers up top. Check all cabinet tops for level and same height all the way around. Granite is unforgiving of differences in height and can crack if forced.

When I did the cope & stick for the door frames, I used a sled on my router table for the ends of the rails and fed them through the bit with a sacrificial piece of wood behind each one to avoid chip-out. Make all of your cuts at the same time for similar pieces.

You can re-use your hinges if they're good-quality units but I'd replace them if they're not. Blum makes hinges and glides that can accept a soft-close mechanism that's really slick (and keeps things from slamming!).

Good luck with your remodel and enjoy the experience!

:kermit: Steve

 

[Travis Porter]

It looks like you have euro hinges and frameless cabinet construction. Use the table saw to make your grooves using a regular blade, and make your door frames around 2 1/8 to 2 1/2 inches wide. If you glue the wood pieces on the boxes to hide the paint, you will probably need to bring your hinges out 1/16 of an inch or so, but no big deal.

I would bet your drawers fronts are just screwed on to a drawer box, so that should be easy.

All in all, it isn't bad to do. The worst part will be finishing all the doors and drawers IMO.

 

[cubicdissection]

Wow, thanks for all the tips guys, that's exactly what I needed to know!

I do plan on using ply for the panel - generally with a floating panel I thought you were supposed to spot glue it in the middle somewhere to let the edges move. Hinges seem to be good and the drawer faces just screw right on the front.

Trying to keep it simple and cheap since I'm paying someone to do the granite tops. Finishing should be no big deal with my HVLP gun. Finally have a use for that Delta Tenoning jig...had the dang thing for 5 years now and it's unused!

Thinking about doing an inlay in the center of the panels to match the backsplash pattern. Pretty easy job with my laser cutter. I'll post pics once it's all said n done

EDIT: BTW Steve I like your pic...made me lol

 

[Canuck]

Hi Eric,

You may want to check out this link with a spreadsheet you can download for calculating rail, stile and panel dimensions when doing flat or raised panel doors.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=144

Rob McRabbet placed it up there in the link library and I have used it a number of times and never had a measurement failure. As a matter of fact I just finished twelve flat panel doors (Cope and Stick) for four cabinets and every door actually fits!!!!:thumbs_up

Great link FYI.

Good luck with the kitchen doors!

Wayne

 

[cubicdissection]

Hey Fellas,

OK so we picked the granite today....sapphire blue, COOL lookin stuff
Also mostly have the backsplash stuff picked out.

I've decided to go with curly maple for the cabinets...should look really nice, and Klingspors says they can special order me a batch and generally get very good consistancy.

I have a couple follow up questions though:
1. Current door thickness is .652 inches. Can I go up to .75 without a problem or should I stay the same?
2. Should I really go with 1/4" ply or could I ude 3/8"? Thicker seems like it would be sturdier.
3. How deep should my tenons be for the rails?

Finally, I'm kind of agonizing over the drawer faces. Most are 6 3/16" tall...if I use the same stile and rail width as the doors (2"), the frame surface will overwhelm the panel and I think it will look funny.

I like the looks of solid surface, but I only have a 6" jointer and one large drawer is about 11" wide. I'm sure I could slip the cabinet shop down the street a $20 to face the board for me though. However, warping is a concern as well.

This fella has an interesting solution - he put the stiles into the rails and made the drawer rails thinner:

Another approach is to use a rail and stile approach, but have the door solid like this (but without the faux joinery inlay - god I hate that). This option looks easiest, but I'm not sure I like the way the drawer looks compared to a solid plank:

 

[JimD]

Figured maple is nice and will make a great kitchen. I like to have the figure in the panel first, however, with the frame a lower priority. Can you get curly maple plywood.

I would make 6 inch drawer fronts out of one board. I would make larger drawer fronts like a door.

Where you have several door fronts next to each other, I would be careful to use the same board so the grain will match. Doesn't cost anything but adds significant class.

Jim

 

[DaveO]

Hey Fellas,

OK so we picked the granite today....sapphire blue, COOL lookin stuff
Also mostly have the backsplash stuff picked out.

I've decided to go with curly maple for the cabinets...should look really nice, and Klingspors says they can special order me a batch and generally get very good consistancy.

I have a couple follow up questions though:
1. Current door thickness is .652 inches. Can I go up to .75 without a problem or should I stay the same? Are they overlay doors? If so the thickness shouldn't matter, especially with a variance of only .098". ¾" is a typical rail/stile stock thickness.
2. Should I really go with 1/4" ply or could I ude 3/8"? Thicker seems like it would be sturdier. ¼" ply will suffice especially if it is glued into the grooves. Your strength will come from the rails and stiles. Using 3/8" ply would compromise the strength of the M&T joint somewhat, unless you used thicker stock.
3. How deep should my tenons be for the rails? Personally for a door like this I would use a groove and stub tenon. The groove depth and tenon length at 1/2" Gluing in the ply panel will add a lot of rigidity to the door, and the groove/stub tenon is quick and easy to make once you've set up your tooling

Finally, I'm kind of agonizing over the drawer faces. Most are 6 3/16" tall...if I use the same stile and rail width as the doors (2"), the frame surface will overwhelm the panel and I think it will look funny.

I like the looks of solid surface, but I only have a 6" jointer and one large drawer is about 11" wide. I'm sure I could slip the cabinet shop down the street a $20 to face the board for me though. However, warping is a concern as well. If you stock is properly dried, acclimated to it's environment, and flat when you start it shouldn't warp. You can very easily rip a wider board in half to joint and glue it back together and no one but you will ever know it happened

This fella has an interesting solution - he put the stiles into the rails and made the drawer rails thinner:

Another approach is to use a rail and stile approach, but have the door solid like this (but without the faux joinery inlay - god I hate that). This option looks easiest, but I'm not sure I like the way the drawer looks compared to a solid plank:

Replies above in RED,

Dave

 

[Woodman2k]

Eric,
I would use "space balls",little foam balls in the grooves before you set the panels,it's definitely better than glueing them.It takes care of the rattles and lets the panel expand and contract without effecting the door frame.You can go with a thicker panel as long as you have a back cutter on your panel cutter bit.You can set it up so you still have a 1/4 inch edge but the back(inside cabinet) of the door ends up flush.The thicker panel is also handy if you are mounting any of the crazy door accessories that are available.It will be fun no matter what.:BangHead:

 

[cubicdissection]

Eric,
I would use "space balls",little foam balls in the grooves before you set the panels,it's definitely better than glueing them.It takes care of the rattles and lets the panel expand and contract without effecting the door frame.You can go with a thicker panel as long as you have a back cutter on your panel cutter bit.You can set it up so you still have a 1/4 inch edge but the back(inside cabinet) of the door ends up flush.The thicker panel is also handy if you are mounting any of the crazy door accessories that are available.It will be fun no matter what.:BangHead:

Ahh, OK, that makes sense with the panels. I'm not doing *any* decorative edges at all, so everything will be 90* angles. Was going to do all the cuts on my table saw...I hardly ever use the router. Any reason I shouldn't be able to? I have a nice set of blades and a heavy *** steel delta tenoning jig i've been dying to try out. Not much opportunity to do so when you make 4" puzzles all day .

 

[cubicdissection]

DaveO - See, this is why I come here! IMHO the secret to success is not being afraid to hang out with people smarter than you

Much appreciated buddy...all your remarks sound right on the money. Funny how a guy like me who has been working wood for a living for five years has to start with the basics when I dive into larger stuff than a puzzle box. What fun!

 

[cubicdissection]

Jim - Didn't figure on being able to find figured ply...was just going to do the frame curly and panel basic. Guess I'll see how it works out...I'll def post pics once I'm done.

 

[DaveO]

Eric,
I would use "space balls",little foam balls in the grooves before you set the panels,it's definitely better than glueing them.It takes care of the rattles and lets the panel expand and contract without effecting the door frame.You can go with a thicker panel as long as you have a back cutter on your panel cutter bit.You can set it up so you still have a 1/4 inch edge but the back(inside cabinet) of the door ends up flush.The thicker panel is also handy if you are mounting any of the crazy door accessories that are available.It will be fun no matter what.:BangHead:

Ahh, OK, that makes sense with the panels. I'm not doing *any* decorative edges at all, so everything will be 90* angles. Was going to do all the cuts on my table saw...I hardly ever use the router. Any reason I shouldn't be able to? I have a nice set of blades and a heavy *** steel delta tenoning jig i've been dying to try out. Not much opportunity to do so when you make 4" puzzles all day .

If you are using plywood panels, there is no reason to not glue them in place. If they are solid wood, then you will need to account for movement and the Space Balls are a great way to prevent rattling.
As far as forming the tenon, a tenon jig will do quite well, but I find it faster with a dado stack. Make your cheek cuts with a standard blade, and then switch to a dado stack to nibble away the waste. I find that registering the stock on the table is easier than clamping it into a tenoning jig, and you also have overhead clearance to consider if the doors are wide.

Dave

 

[JimmyC]

I agree with DaveO, there's no need to use spaceballs in the panels. The ply will not expand, I made kitchen cabinet doors and glued the ply panels in, after 10 years there were still no problems.

Jimmy:mrgreen:

 

[DaveO]

Jim - Didn't figure on being able to find figured ply...was just going to do the frame curly and panel basic. Guess I'll see how it works out...I'll def post pics once I'm done.

Curly Maple ply is available, although you will pay well for it. You might consider laying up your own panels. Curly Maple veneer is readily available, and easy to work with especially if you get paper backed or PSA veneers. I veneered some cabinet doors panels with Walnut veneer on ¼" ply using contact cement about 5 years ago and they still look great -

My first forte into veneering. I would do it different now. But with the paper backed or PSA veneers it's about fool proof.

Dave

 

[cubicdissection]

Hmm...interesting idea. I wonder if "all curl" would be too over the top. I was thinking the fancy frames would be muted by the plain doors. Maybe I should take Jim's advice and do a veneer on the panels and go with plain maple frames. Price wise it would probably be a wash.

 

[DavidF]

Personally I would go with the curly panels and plain frames. If you can avoid the delta mortising attachment by going with grooves and stub tenons you'll be a lot better off. 1/4" thick tenons will be fine and then you can rip the grooves all the way through the stiles on the TS or router table.

 

[cubicdissection]

Personally I would go with the curly panels and plain frames. If you can avoid the delta mortising attachment by going with grooves and stub tenons you'll be a lot better off. 1/4" thick tenons will be fine and then you can rip the grooves all the way through the stiles on the TS or router table.

Geez...just when I thought I had my mind made up!

I'll let SWMBO make the call

 

[DavidF]

Geez...just when I thought I had my mind made up!

I'll let SWMBO make the call

Sorry about that! but, unless you are very lucky with the wood selection available, you'll pay for curly for the frame and not really see the benefit over the "plain" At least with the panel you will have a larger area to show off the grain. Curly Maple isn't as over powering as some grain patterns so no real worry about the doors looking too busy visually.

 

[JimD]

The reason that "Norm" on the New Yankee Woodshop uses 3/8 panels is so that he can rabbett the edges to fit the 1/4 grooves in the frame. If you use a commercial frame and stick bit, almost all of them cut a 1/4 groove. Most 1/4 plywood is not really 1/4. If you put 1/4 plywood into the 1/4 groove, you have a 1/32 or more gap. If you use 3/8 plywood, you can cut it to fit.

If you make your own grooves to fit the plywood you buy, you can adjust the width to fit. It's a little tricky, however, because the smallest groove you can make with a stack dado is 1/4. To make a smaller groove, I make two passes with the regular saw blade. To get it in the center, I make one with each face up against the fence. That doubles the fence movement as you nibble up on the right setting. A micro-adjust on the fence really helps.

The other advantage of 3/8 is it is a little more solid. I used full 1/4 cherry with a mdf center on my kitchen island. It seems plenty solid to me and fit a 1/4 groove well. I bought it not because I like mdf but because the veneer looked nicer to me than my suppliers 1/4 plywood.

You can definitely do these doors on a table saw. I like to use my CMS for the cross cuts but the table saw will do them.

I do not use "space balls". You can glue plywood panels, as has been stated, but I usually do not use very much because it is easy to get it on the panel where it shows. A few spots will eliminate any rattle and add a little strength. On solid wood panels, I finish before assembly (never a bad idea IMHO) and they typically warp enough to sit in the dado without rattling.

Jim