Piano added piece - achieving the gloss black?

[Henry W]

All
I have been asked to create a 'medium' length stick to hold open the grand piano lid. It has a low and a high height option, but not a medium. Aside from the engineering of this task (do I try to keep both existing options installed and add a 3rd? or do i replace one with the desired medium height option?), i would want to (need to?) finish that piece with a high gloss black lacquer.

Anyone have any experience with 'trying' to achieve that type of finish? (Piano gloss black)
I am going to try to achieve something close to matching the finish, but will not be obsessive about it (this is a small portion of the piano, that is generally hidden.

I am also not want to use traditional lacquer (solvent based) unless I have to.

 

[Kirk S]

one option would be to dye it black and French polish with shellac.

 

[Henry W]

The black of course needs to be a real true black, which I think I can get close to just using Target's water based acrylic 'lacquer' (Em 6000 series, pigmented). But the gloss of that is nowhere near glossy enough with just that. I am expecting many many coats of glossy clear layers on top of a base black. Of course the surface(s) will need to be very smooth to begin with (well sanded, an area i am too often sloppy with.)
I am thinking hard maple as a species. Any advice on species?

 

[marinosr]

No experience, but I did once do a good bit of research into this when I was trying to paint a tulip table in high gloss. The approach I was going to use was waterborne automotive paint (Dupont Cromax) followed by an automotive clear coat, and then rubbed out like a car paint job. I ultimately decided it was going to be way too much of a PITA, though, and that I didn't have adequate dust control for such a large piece.

 

[Henry W]

THis will be a relatively small piece (a stick if you will), but will still be a PITA.

 

[JNCarr]

India Ink for the true black.
Unaware of any water based finish that will give you the deep gloss of a piano.
Maybe @Graywolf knows??

 

[Henry W]

Quite frankly l thought the answer was going to be 2-3 coats of black and 20 layers of clear gloss.

 

[creasman]

Just use a high gloss black spray paint for something like this. Put a small hook in one end so you can easily remove and touch up the spot. Use this to hang it from while you spray and let dry.

 

[Oka]

Dye with ink or dye, but only buy true black, then you can poly ,lacquer or French polish... however, on a piano you need a lot of coats..... depending on material and conditions upwards of 20... or it will not look correct.
The wood usually is maple or white oak

 

[Graywolf]

In most cases the black you see on a lot of the older pianos is a gloss black. Very little top coat. I have added pigments and dyes to shellac and achieved some brilliant colors. Now I’ve never finished a piano so I could be speaking out of turn.

 

[Oka]

If you want to be period (old 19th century) you would use more often oak and treat it with tannic acid to darken it, then use denatured or pure drinking alcohol mixed linseed oil and use lamp black mix and rub it in like a French polish. However, with French polish you do not use the same force...So, when apply the 1st few coat you rub slighly harder and then as you go, you lighten up on the downward force with each next coat after 5-6 coats, you are applying just like you would French polish. If you do this it comes out awesome, BUT do not do it in you shop do it out side, the lamp black goes everywhere. 2 of my older brothers used to work on pianos and I got snookered into doing this a few times........ messy. Does look awesome and this technique you can get pretty near exact matches to an existing old finish.

 

[Alan in Little Washington]

Contact our resident master harpsichord maker, Ernie Miller

 

[Henry W]

As far as l know, this is not a particularly old piano. I'd guess 20 - 25 years old (max).

Henry

 

[smallboat]

Indirect answer to your question - is it possible to hinge the current ”long” support so that it can serve as both long and medium?

Then you wouldn’t need to match the finish at all.
Well, maybe on the ends that are created when you make the cut for the hinge.

 

[Henry W]

Indirect answer to your question - is it possible to hinge the current ”long” support so that it can serve as both long and medium?

Then you wouldn’t need to match the finish at all.
Well, maybe on the ends that are created when you make the cut for the hinge.

Interesting idea. I believe the concept is to keep the existing pieces intact, but I will ask if this is an option.

Appreciate that you addressed the real issue, without necessarily answering my direct question.

Thanks - I hadn't considered this.

 

[Roy G]

Henry, since the piano is not that old have you tried to contact the manufacturer and see if you can get their description of the finish? Might be pure high volume technology but maybe they are traditional.

Roy G

 

[Henry W]

Thanks all for the advice. Just getting back to this project now. I have decided on a technical approach on making the medium height support bar, but have not investgated finishes yet. Note that prior to requesting my help, the folks in charge of the instrument were in contact with the vendor that suplied the piano, and there was no commercially available option for a medium height support rod.

The medium height support will be a separate piece that can be slid over the low bar to extend the length - in essence a long thin box, open on one end. The retains the full functionality of the original piano and is the least intrusive way to accompish the need. I have lots of maple or poplar scraps that should work. I will mock up a piece with plywood to get dimensions right - then create the finished piece. Most of the work will be in the finishing I expect. I believe I have still have some high gloss black lacquer (Target Coatings 'lacquer') that should work with multiple coats and maybe several clear coats on top of that.

Pics will happen - though I doubt this project will require any sort of how-to. No one else may ever have this sort of project request again.

 

[ErnieM]

If the piano is about 25 years old and it is imported, chances are the finish is polyester, not lacquer. You can usually tell by the absence of sharp edges on the case. If everything is rounded and smooth it's probably polyester. Matching this with lacquer is difficult to do. Fortunately, this is a lid stick - a generally ignored part, so a high gloss lacquer will do fine. While harpsichords are rarely finished in high gloss, I finish all case parts as if they will be high gloss and use a satin or semi-gloss (unsanded) as the final coat. For black instruments, I use India Ink or Japan colors - both are jet black. Japan colors are oil based and dry quite flat. The India Ink that I use (Speedball) has some shellac in it as a binder so is not really water based. Other India Inks, without binders, may be truly water based.

Regardless of how you choose to color the wood black, get a professional high gloss has less to do with the material used (lacquer, varnish, polyurethane, etc.) but relies on the sanding between coats. On lid sticks, I usually just spray (good quality spray cans are fine) on several coats, lightly sanded between coats on varnish or poly. After 4 or 5 coats, I sand heavily with 320 paper (dry). I don't care if I sand thru to the bare wood as filling the pores and minor defects are my goals at this stage. I use maple for lid sticks to make this part go quicker as the pores are very small. When I convince myself that the pores and defects are filled (I'm usually wrong), I re-color the lid stick with a coat of India Ink or Japan color, followed by three more coats of finish. This should result in a very shiny, but somewhat garish look. I wet sand this coat with 1000 grit wet/dry paper used wet. There should be no (or very few) shiny spots remaining on the lid stick. I spray the final coat with whatever sheen I want and do not sand this final coat.

Yes, this is a lot of work, but keep in mind that the higher the gloss, the more the slightest defect will show. I've tried water based finishes and have had no luck with them. This may well be due to my lack of experience with these finishes, but at my age, I probably don't have the time necessary to get a comfort level with them. One final caveat - I sometimes use different finishes on the same instrument. Varnish or poly on the large case pieces and spray lacquer on the small stuff. When I do this, I always include a list of what finish was used on each part of the instrument. Should a part need repair or refinishing at some future date, the list will ( or may ) stop the owner from using varnish on a lacquered part or visa versa.

Ernie -

 

[MarkDarby]

I refinished an early 1920s clock a few years ago. I had several dents (serious-sized dents) to fill. I used body putty for the dents... but then had issues hiding the wood grain. Whatever they used then really did a good job of hiding grain. When I sanded the body putty down, the grain really popped through. I layered several coats of auto body primer and then painted with Krylon. I then put a half a dozen or more coats of high-gloss lacquer on top. That seemed to work.

 

[Henry W]

If the piano is about 25 years old and it is imported, chances are the finish is polyester, not lacquer. You can usually tell by the absence of sharp edges on the case. If everything is rounded and smooth it's probably polyester. Matching this with lacquer is difficult to do. Fortunately, this is a lid stick - a generally ignored part, so a high gloss lacquer will do fine. While harpsichords are rarely finished in high gloss, I finish all case parts as if they will be high gloss and use a satin or semi-gloss (unsanded) as the final coat. For black instruments, I use India Ink or Japan colors - both are jet black. Japan colors are oil based and dry quite flat. The India Ink that I use (Speedball) has some shellac in it as a binder so is not really water based. Other India Inks, without binders, may be truly water based.

Regardless of how you choose to color the wood black, get a professional high gloss has less to do with the material used (lacquer, varnish, polyurethane, etc.) but relies on the sanding between coats. On lid sticks, I usually just spray (good quality spray cans are fine) on several coats, lightly sanded between coats on varnish or poly. After 4 or 5 coats, I sand heavily with 320 paper (dry). I don't care if I sand thru to the bare wood as filling the pores and minor defects are my goals at this stage. I use maple for lid sticks to make this part go quicker as the pores are very small. When I convince myself that the pores and defects are filled (I'm usually wrong), I re-color the lid stick with a coat of India Ink or Japan color, followed by three more coats of finish. This should result in a very shiny, but somewhat garish look. I wet sand this coat with 1000 grit wet/dry paper used wet. There should be no (or very few) shiny spots remaining on the lid stick. I spray the final coat with whatever sheen I want and do not sand this final coat.

Yes, this is a lot of work, but keep in mind that the higher the gloss, the more the slightest defect will show. I've tried water based finishes and have had no luck with them. This may well be due to my lack of experience with these finishes, but at my age, I probably don't have the time necessary to get a comfort level with them. One final caveat - I sometimes use different finishes on the same instrument. Varnish or poly on the large case pieces and spray lacquer on the small stuff. When I do this, I always include a list of what finish was used on each part of the instrument. Should a part need repair or refinishing at some future date, the list will ( or may ) stop the owner from using varnish on a lacquered part or visa versa.

Ernie -

I refinished an early 1920s clock a few years ago. I had several dents (serious-sized dents) to fill. I used body putty for the dents... but then had issues hiding the wood grain. Whatever they used then really did a good job of hiding grain. When I sanded the body putty down, the grain really popped through. I layered several coats of auto body primer and then painted with Krylon. I then put a half a dozen or more coats of high-gloss lacquer on top. That seemed to work.

Thanks Ernie and Mark. Based on Ernie's suggestion, I am guessing that this is a polyester. I don't particularly care what material as long as I get get a black that is glossy.

I'm going to hang my strategy on Ernie's statement: "Fortunately, this is a lid stick - a generally ignored part, so a high gloss lacquer will do fine." I will be happy as long as it somewhere close to the piano black gloss - and not a hideous substitute.