I'm Looking for the Collective Wisdom of the Group!

[Kent Adams]

I have a home I'm trying to remodel. This home has a subfloor of 3/4 inch plywood. On top is 1/2 particle board and then 1970's vinyl on top of that. Prior owner had cats and they sprayed the house so you can imagine the smell. I've determined that the aforementioned spraying didn't penetrate beyond the particle board (vinyl does not go wall to wall). I need to remove the vinyl and its particle board underlayment. The particle board is not glued down, thank god. It's nailed down. However, the vinyl is glued onto the particle board. I need to remove both the vinyl and the particle board so only the plywood is left.

It is not possible to simply peel back the vinyl to expose the particle board. I'm trying to figure out the best method to tackle this job. I have 1700 sq feet to remove. Particle board underlayment is difficult to cut through when its underlayment. I've done a lot of research but have no first hand knowledge on how to accomplish this job. Here are my thoughts.

1. Rent a 400lb floor scraper to remove the vinyl and then use a non-arbor hole saw around each and every nail so I can remove the nails and pull up the particle board.
2. Use my Festool TS-55 tracksaw, cut through both the vinyl and particle board using a 52 tooth laminate/hpl saw blade, cut into strips and then use a crowbar to pull up the individual strips of particle board and vinyl.

It would be wonderful if the 400lb floor scraper could do both (pull up vinyl and particle board), but I fear it won't be capable of that. I can't find any good solution to this problem so I am praying for the collective wisdom of this group to tell me something different I can try or to tell me what is wrong with the two options I have identified.

I look forward to your suggestions and please don't hesitate to tell me I'm wrong or that there is a better way! Thank you!

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[FredP]

Option 2 and a large crowbar. I would buy a cheap circular saw and leave the fussytool in the shop. Set the depth to 7/8" or a bit less and get some cheap carbide blades. Pull it all up in strips.
Hire a young strong kid to do the grunt work.

 

[badger fan]

Kent
Not sure this advise comes from wisdom, but it does come from experience.
I had the exact problem but it was carpet instead of vinyl.
I took of the trim board base boards as they also needed to be replaced.once that was done I could force a crow bar between the sheets and pry up the flooring. Lot of work but it came up. I think you vinyl creates the “covering” that has to be removed first, then you can get to floor.
I have seen it drone with skill saw cutting the floor and then pulled up as well. Either way works, it’s just a matter of how much work it is.
I feel you pain.

 

[waitup]

I am a remodeling GC, so I deal with stuff like this on a daily basis in my day job. I would say Fred has good advice. I would try it with a large pry bar/flat bar and some 2x4's. You might be able to get the particle board up in full sheets. The vinyl will often times break or be able to be cut with a razor blade. Do need to be aware of potential for asbestos in the flooring or glue, depending on the exact age though.

 

[Kent Adams]

Option 2 and a large crowbar. I would buy a cheap circular saw and leave the fussytool in the shop. Set the depth to 7/8" or a bit less and get some cheap carbide blades. Pull it all up in strips.
Hire a young strong kid to do the grunt work.

Thanks Fred! Do you have a recommendation on the brand of saw and blades?

 

[Kent Adams]

I am a remodeling GC, so I deal with stuff like this on a daily basis in my day job. I would say Fred has good advice. I would try it with a large pry bar/flat bar and some 2x4's. You might be able to get the particle board up in full sheets. The vinyl will often times break or be able to be cut with a razor blade. Do need to be aware of potential for asbestos in the flooring or glue, depending on the exact age though.

Thanks Matt! What if I paid you to do it! House is in Graham, NC. I'm not greedy either, I would pay top dollar! To be honest, this is some crap I hate to deal with at my age. I'm just trying to make the wife happy. She grew up in the home and doesn't want us to sell it to a flipper.

 

[Rick Mainhart]

Hi Kent,
I've been in your situation. Take a circular saw and cut through the vinyl and the particle board, avoiding the plywood by adjusting the cut depth on the circular saw. Make your cuts about 12" apart in an X-Y grid. Since you will hit nails, plan on replacing the carbide-toothed blade (it's a consumable, and not that expensive).

Then, get a heavy wrecking bar (such as this one: https://www.acehardware.com/departm...xHXXcfvjlsb5rBRNtdoaAjANEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds) and pry each 12"x12" vinyl/particle board sandwich off of the plywood. When prying against the plywood directly, use one of the previously sandwiches as a buffer to keep from denting/puncturing the plywood deck.

Remove all exposed fasteners from the plywood. Walk over the floor, and use construction screws to tighten any squeaking areas (trust me, you'll regret skipping this step).

Paint the entire subfloor with a stain blocking primer (such as Kilz) ... use oil base and not water based primer. This will help seal any remaining odors into the plywood and keep them from oozing out as time goes by.

By the way, particle board from that era had urea-based glue when wet smelled like the competition to our cats and thought the "competition" was moving in on their territory. They respray to wipe out the competition, and compound the issue.

By painting the subfloor, the cats were at first curious as to what happened to their markings ... but quickly learned NOT to re-mark their territory as they ended up soaked with water!

We then laid prefinished oak on top of our painted subfloor and have had no issues. Be mindful that prying those 12" x 12" sections is not a quick task, but is quite manageable. Take it one section at a time (divide the room into quadrants and completely remove one quadrant at a time), and you'll be done fairly quick. This is certainly a task that others can help perform ... and makes the project an "WE did it" moment.

Good luck and don't over-do it!

Regards,

Rick

 

[Kent Adams]

Wow Rick, sounds like you've done this before! I didn't expect this type of detailed response but I knew this was a wonderful group. My avatar says I'm a new user, but I've been a member for about 15 years, primarily as an observer rather than commenter. On the x-y pattern, is that like a chess board? How many carbide blades would you expect I'd grow through for 1700 square feet?

 

[waitup]

Thanks Matt! What if I paid you to do it! House is in Graham, NC. I'm not greedy either, I would pay top dollar! To be honest, this is some crap I hate to deal with at my age. I'm just trying to make the wife happy. She grew up in the home and doesn't want us to sell it to a flipper.

Unfortunately we don't really go that far west.

Edit: Rick filled in the blanks and that is good advice. I would probably cut up the floor. Young guys doing work for me would pull up whole sheets

 

[Kent Adams]

Unfortunately we don't really go that far west.

Understood! The flooring was laid down in 1976, so I guess I should buy some asbestos detection kits too.

 

[tvrgeek]

I think the KiIls you want is the shellac based as it is the sealer. Alcohol fumes do need a good fan while painting.

There are several You-Tube tests of "destruction" blades. I happen to have Diablo.

'76. Yea, high probability the vinyl backing paper contains asbestos. HEPA full face powered mask, fan, spray bottles... but illegal to just toss in the recycler construction dumpster. So might be a real problem. I don't know of a kit to test. I think you need a microscope. If the glue is black, it too probably has asbestos in it. If mastic, probably OK. Post #4 makes the best sense to me, but disposal still a problem.

 

[Kent Adams]

I think the KiIls you want is the shellac based as it is the sealer. Alcohol fumes do need a good fan while painting.

There are several You-Tube tests of "destruction" blades. I happen to have Diablo.

'76. Yea, high probability the vinyl backing paper contains asbestos. HEPA full face powered mask, fan, spray bottles... but illegal to just toss in the recycler construction dumpster. So might be a real problem. I don't know of a kit to test. I think you need a microscope. If the glue is black, it too probably has asbestos in it. If mastic, probably OK. Post #4 makes the best sense to me, but disposal still a problem.

Thanks Scott for the direction. I'll look into the YT videos for destruction blades and look for some HEPA full face powered mask. The Vinyl does have a black backing, but not sure if the glue is black, doesn't seem so. Some of the vinyl around the edges is easy to pull back and there is no black residue on the particle board, but there is a black backing on the vinyl.

On disposal, I could burn it, I have a property I can burn things on.

 

[gritz]

I had a similar situation. I pried up the particle board and cut the vinyl at the joints with a razor knife.

 

[Kent Adams]

I had a similar situation. I pried up the particle board and cut the vinyl at the joints with a razor knife.

Robert thanks for the help! My particle boards are flush with each other. Did you have a method for putting the crowbar into the joint to start in a room?

 

[gritz]

The PB butted loosely up to the baseboards. I removed the baseboards and pried from that gap plus I used some HVAC openings and areas where walls were removed. I started with a short flat bar, moving to 36" and 48" crowbars as space allowed. It moves quickly once you get started and the vinyl cuts become distinct. In the kitchen and baths, the space left by removed cabinets and fixtures gave an easy pry opening.

 

[Kent Adams]

The PB butted loosely up to the baseboards. I removed the baseboards and pried from that gap plus I used some HVAC openings and areas where walls were removed. I started with a short flat bar, moving to 36" and 48" crowbars as space allowed. It moves quickly once you get started and the vinyl cuts become distinct. In the kitchen and baths, the space left by removed cabinets and fixtures gave an easy pry opening.

Thanks Robert, that makes sense. I have some walls to remove. So basically, you didn't bother to cut up the floor with a circular saw, is that right? Do you have flat bar and crow bar recommendations?

 

[pop-pop]

+1 on Kilz primer for sealing in cat urine odors.

 

[tri4sale]

What Rick said! Just did this in the spring / summer on a rehab, and just used demo blades from HD, I think Diablo brand, and figured we'd burn thru one blade for each room. But we were going thru 1 1/4 thick hardwoods with 16d nails into subfloor. Except for the laundry room which had over 3 inches of floor on top of floor on top of floor. We counted over 6 layers of flooring.

 

[tri4sale]

+1 on Kilz primer for sealing in cat urine odors.

agree, but my guy always says to use the oil based kilz for it, that it works much better than water based kilz.

 

[Kent Adams]

What Rick said! Just did this in the spring / summer on a rehab, and just used demo blades from HD, I think Diablo brand, and figured we'd burn thru one blade for each room. But we were going thru 1 1/4 thick hardwoods with 16d nails into subfloor. Except for the laundry room which had over 3 inches of floor on top of floor on top of floor. We counted over 6 layers of flooring.

Daniel, how many blades per room do you recommend? The nails I see look like roofing nails to me.