How to attach a top??

[DaveO]

I believe that may have got myself into a bind. On one of my latest projects, I can't figure out how to attach the top. My biggest problem is that I don't have access to the underside of the top once the piece is fully glued up. The drawer openings don't allow enough clearance for me to drive a screw or anything like that.
The top is triangular ~15" deep by 25" wide, and it is to be attached to cabinet sides of solid wood. Here's some pics -

I have thought about attaching the top before the face
frame is attached, but that would leave me without a point of attachment to the front. And I had planned on attaching the FF and then hand-planing the sides down to match the angles of the sides.

Right at this moment nothing is glued up, just dry fitted so I am open to any suggestions :eusa_pray:eusa_pray

TIA,
Dave

 

[Gofor]

It looks like the top will expand most front to back. Can you add a couple of "runners" that will allow you to use z-clips accessible through the drawer opening?

Go

 

[DaveO]

Mark, that's a good idea. I am still concerned that I won't have the clearance to do any serious screw driver/drill-driver work in the space. It's only about 5.5" tall, through the less than 3" drawer opening.

I think that I may have come up with a possible solution - I will attach the top to the back panels only with Z clips. I will carefully measure for the set up of one or two clips that will attach to the front FF. I will assemble the FF assembly off the carcass, with it hand planning work. Then I will attach the FF to the carcass and hope the I measure well enough for the front Z clips to line up right. I might have enough room to get a stubby screw driver and hand in there to tighten them up a bit once all is assembled, giving me a little wobble room on the assembly.

Please I welcome any other suggestions, there has got to be a better way than what I have concocted :roll:
Dave

 

[jeff...]

Dave have you considered screw cleats? 3/4" sq strips screwed to the sides and front and to the top? You should be able to get the screws in with a offset ratchet screwdriver, which is made for getting in tight spaces. I've replaced many a top on cabinets this tool is the bomb...

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=692


BTW - glad to see something made out of the spalted QS Beech. How was it to work with?

Thanks

 

[DaveO]

BTW - glad to see something made out of the spalted QS Beech. How was it to work with?

Thanks

I have thought about going along those lines. I have never had a lot of luck with driving screws in any other method other than direct in-line pressure. Maybe with a good pilot hole and chasing the thread into the wood first they might go in easily.

The QS Beech was very nice to work with. Quite hard and a little prone to burning like Cherry. Some of the spalted sapwood was pretty soft, but still good wood. A very distinct difference between it and the heart wood. The spalting is outstanding. I feel bad using this wood for what I am doing, but the cost, workability and stability was way better than Poplar. My parents want to paint this 8-O8-O:BangHead::BangHead:. I hope to convince them against that crazy idea with some beautiful wood :-D

Dave

 

[jglord]

Dave,

Beautiful work.

I like the recommendation of a Fine Woodworking article a while back. The author suggests that tops should be firmly attached on one edge. The basic idea is two fold, 1. to only allow movement in a direction that will not cause problems - e.g. a dining table should be attached in the center, allowing the wood to expand in both directions, but, 2. preventing the top from becoming loose when the wood is very dry. Another example is when a table will be against the wall, it should be attached at the back to prevent the top from pushing against the wall.

In the case of your cabinet, you might consider adding a small triangular block at the back and then driving a screw into the top. Use z-clips on the front of the sides and into the face frame.

 

[jeff...]

I have thought about going along those lines. I have never had a lot of luck with driving screws in any other method other than direct in-line pressure. Maybe with a good pilot hole and chasing the thread into the wood first they might go in easily.

Dave

Yeah I think a pilot hole would help - Also try course thread drywall screws they go in with a good bite and with the course thread you don't have so much turning to get it snug. Believe it or not but a lot of higher end furniture is screwed together with drywall screws...

Just remember to make your hole in the screw cleat a little bigger than the shank of the screw to allow for some movement in temp / humidity changes. I think a slot might be a little over kill just an over sized hole is good enough. STOP... What am I saying? I'm sure you already know this... Smack me next time you see me...

Yep would be a shame to paint that pretty wood... I knew it was going to be hard and dense after all a lot of bench top are made of beech. I didn't know it would be prone to machine burning like cherry. Thanks for the review, it's good to get a little real life information on a new to me wood.

Thanks

 

[bluewing92]

Dave,
Is there enough room (overhang) for the use of figure 8 clips? You would have to drill a recess in the top of the sides so they would be flush then with the other half extending out from the sides you could screw them to the bottom of the top from the outside. Is this clear as mud?

 

[nelsone]

Use a ratchet with a screwdriver tip. Much better than those offset screwdrivers. You can apply the inline pressure, but still get the torque you need. Definitely drill pilot holes. That should allow you to use cleats or figure 8 with no problems.

 

[DavidF]

How about adding battens to the top only on the long angled sides, these could be screwed to the top. The battens would drop down inside the case sides and could be then screwed from the outside with either decorative brass screws or you could use screw caps. The front would not be directly attached to the FF, but with the long sides fully secure that may not matter. If you wanted to you may be able to attach a right angle bracket above the top drawer and screwed into the top with access through the drawer opening.

 

[Joe Scharle]

Since you're going to paint it, why not screw the top to the rails and plug the counterbores?

 

[dino drosas]

Dave, I have good luck with the following method. Attach a piece of solid 3/4 x 3/4 along the entire inside top front of the carcus and the same on the sides comming out of the vee. Drill a 1/4" hole in each side strip about 6" out of the vee. Now attach a piece of the same strip along the underside front of the top so that the two pieces are in contact with each other when the top is placed on the cabinet. Now attach a piece of 1/2" ply (1 1/2" wide) to the strip on the top so that it overhangs 3/4" to the front. When you are ready to put on the top, put it in place and slide it to the front securing the front side. Reach inside and screw up through the pre-drilled holes at the back. The 1/4" holes will allow plenty of room for movement of the top.

 

[DaveD]

How about a couple of biscuits? Or just glue it on with some construction adhesive once you have the cabinet base in place. Or 4 small pieces of aluminum angle (middle of sides and 2 along front). Screw to the top first, drop top on base, and use angled powered screwdriver/drill to finish up.

http://www.toolbarn.com/product/milwaukee/0370-20/

 

[FredP]

got any dowel points? drill holes in the suports. insert points place top in posiyion and bump it with your hand a couple o times and drill holes in top at marks. i dont beleive expansion is going to be a problem with a top that size. if you think it will you can ream the holes a little to make the dowels a little looser. glue dowels and set top.

fred

 

[McRabbet]

I recently attached a top using the equivalent of a keyhole-style hanger. Your top will have the "keyholes" and the carcass the "hanger screws". First, layout the position for four #12 flathead screws into the top of the backs and the stiles, forming a rectangle (be sure two front screws and two back screws are equidistant from each other). Next, transfer the screw positions to the underside of the top and drill a starting hole (clearance for the screw head) for each screw 1-2" toward the back of the top. Set up a small 14º dovetail bit in a handheld router to run against a temporary fence set parallel to the front-to-back alignment of the screws. Route a dovetail back toward the front of the top at each screw location. It you adjust the screws to the correct height, the top will drop onto the screw heads and you can push it back into a lock position. Clever, eh?

 

[dick541]

Rob has a good idea but add 2 pocket screws to the back sides to lock the top down.
Dick

 

[DaveO]

I recently attached a top using the equivalent of a keyhole-style hanger. Your top will have the "keyholes" and the carcass the "hanger screws". First, layout the position for four #12 flathead screws into the top of the backs and the stiles, forming a rectangle (be sure two front screws and two back screws are equidistant from each other). Next, transfer the screw positions to the underside of the top and drill a starting hole (clearance for the screw head) for each screw 1-2" toward the back of the top. Set up a small 14º dovetail bit in a handheld router to run against a temporary fence set parallel to the front-to-back alignment of the screws. Route a dovetail back toward the front of the top at each screw location. It you adjust the screws to the correct height, the top will drop onto the screw heads and you can push it back into a lock position. Clever, eh?

Rob, that is one of the most innovative ways of attaching a top that I have ever heard of. Did you come up with that idea yourself? If so you have a winning tip to send into one of the woodworking mags :icon_thum

Dave

 

[McRabbet]

I'll need to bone up on SketchUp and draw it up -- yep, it's a crazy idea inspired in my mind by the almighty keyhole hanger. I've normally used it where I wanted to allow for expansion across a top; I screw one side solidly from underneath and use this method to hold the other side down but still allow it to move if it must without splitting.

 

[jlwest]

Your top is relatively small so I would recommend dowels (biscuits) and glue.

 

[DaveO]

I have wondered if I can just glue it in place??? I am a little sheepish about the movement potential, but it is QS stock, although Beech is known for a lot of movement once dried (one of the highest rated on some charts I've seen) :eusa_thin:eusa_thin:eusa_thin:eusa_thin That sure would make things easiest :eusa_pray
Dave