Have I saved money with cheap tools?

[CarvedTones]

Well, the bandsaw is now someone else's problem, though they way he looked it over and talked about it, I don't think it will be a problem very long. I think he knows how to get the stupid thing aligned and/or is willing to fight with it to cut semi-accurately. If I ever decide to get another big one, I will get a nicer one from the start. That seems to be my cycle. The bandsaw's spot on the floor was quickly filled with the scrollsaw Yellofins (Ron) had for sale; a solid 20" Craftsman on a good stand. I used to have a True Value 16" scroll saw and eventually sold it when I got fed up with its shortcomings. The stand will accomodate a shelf where I will be able to store my little Sprunger Bros cast iron 4.5" benchtop joiner. I used to own a little HF joiner. My benchtop tablesaw is an older cast iron Craftsman, a replacement for a Ryobi plastic/aluminum screamer. My lathe is a new Excalibur (Rockler store brand); I used to own a Rand. The router in the benchtop table next to it is a DeWalt; I made do with a base model B&D for far too long before I got that. Anyone sense a pattern here?

The flip side is that everything I have now was bought used or at a big discount. I didn't quit being cheap, but I am trying to give up stupidity. It's hard though; if HF hadn't run out of the $10 heat guns, I would have one...

 

[Mike Davis]

I still try to be FRUGAL. However, I learned a long time ago that cheap is just cheap. It doesn't buy you anything but grief.

Patience, persistence and a careful evaluation of your needs and budget are essential for the frugal wood worker.

Old iron is still the best bargain, but it has to have been quality from the start. Old cheap tools are still just cheap tools, not worth the bother.

When the need is pressing and the time is dear there is no substitute for hard earned cash. IOW invest in good quality new tools that will do the job easily and last for the long haul.

If you have time to search and refurbish then a solid old tool that needs a lot of work and some parts replaced will be better than most of the new stuff on the market.

A dear departed friend once told me that computer design was the end of quality. The computer allows manufacturers to design a part with the absolute minimum requirements to do the job. In the past all tools were designed with a large safety factor because it was not easy to determine the very least amount of metal that would hold up under the usual stress expected of the tool.

 

[Marlin]

Have to weigh what you need to what it cost factor.

How many people here have a 12/14" sliding Table saw? WHAT~!!! you went with a cheap TS???


But I have some tools that are higher end and I got my moneys worth and some cheap tools from HF that I have got more then my moneys worth. heck my Fav hammer is the $2 one from HF. Good weight and has not broken. I have some other high end steel ones and name brand ones, but the $2 hammers from HF always seems to be the one I go to grab.
But I also have a 12" sliding Hiticha Miter saw. Was not cheap, but still onsale. I use it enough to warrant it. The HF one was to low end for my use.

So get what works but don;t spend money on something you will not get the value out of.

 

[CaptnA]

Got to agree with the line - "cheap is just cheap".
I've needed a tool and had to buy one NOW. Hard to save money that way. With time to research and shop hopefully you can get your money's worth. I tend to look at tools as an investment. The right tool for the job means I can do the job.
I always hope to buy the best tool I can afford. Sometimes I convince myself I can afford more than I really can. Maybe due to getting burned too many times trying to save a few dollars.
I know people that can fix, adjust, modify things and always seem to come out ahead.
If I found a $100 bill I'd get taxed $120 as a finders fee.
There are bargains to be had and gems to be discovered.
Forums like this one are good means of sharing information - good and bad.

The best tool bargain I've discovered I got wind of from IAP and have since seen mentioned on here, the HF punch set for under $10. Less than what 2 'quality' punches would have run. I've used about 8 out of the set. Their quaility isn't the best, but the trade off for selection more than makes up for it; at least for taking pens apart.

 

[Larry Rose]

In 35 or so years of woodworking and tool buying I have bought a truck load of El Cheapos and I can't think of any that were any better than fair at best. Saving your money to get a quality tool will always pay off. Having said that, I'm still lured in by a low price once in a while and I usually get stung.

 

[CarvedTones]

Mike,

Yes, frugal is a better word.
And of course you know you are preaching to the choir about old iron. But I have been guilty of getting that in too rough shape before also. I once owned one of the very early Craftsman benchtop tablesaw models that had the tilt top and anvil like base. The knobs to tighten the fence were busted. Getting a miter angle perfect was a chore also. The blade and belt were too exposed to be safe with kids around. I have to be careful not to equate vintage with good.

Marlin,

I do have some favored cheap tools which are, like yours, hand tools. The $2 end nippers from HF with a little careful (don't overheat) grinding to get the face flat are virtually identical to fret pullers costing 15 times as much at a luthiers specialty site. The cheap HF flush cut saw just needed a stiff back added and it is an ultra thin kerf fret saw. About 90% of the time I need a clamp, anything made of metal is overkill.

Larry,

I am with you. I am still bummed that HF was out of the heat guns, though burning the $10 bill would probably be as effective...

 

[gfernandez]

I bought my first table saw from HD about 12 years ago. I won't mention the brand or model for fear of offending someone, but from the start it was nothing but trouble. I was unable to cut a straight line because the cheap fence had so much flex, anything more than mild pressure would move it up to 1/4" or more. It was incredibly underpowered and would bog down at the mere sight of 1 1/2 inch hardwood.

Fast forward to today, I have a SawStop cabinet saw. I've only cried one time, and that was the day I got the credit card bill. It is a joy to use and will hopefully be passed on to my kids. I learned my lesson early on, buy the best I can afford, whether it be new or used.

By the way, there was (and may still be) a Jet Outlet Store in TN I used to go to when I lived in Atlanta 10 years ago. Most of my tools were purchased there, including my 18" bandsaw (small dent), dust collection (brand new out of the box at 40% off), 6" jointer (brand new but had been returned) and a Jet Cabinet saw (small rust spot on the table= $600 saw).

 

[Joe Scharle]

Cheap tools are like cheap food....they wind up in the trash!

 

[tom hintz]

I've gotten so much email from people who "saved" money only to find out it cost them more that I included that very point in my book and wrote a story on it for my site years ago. (Linkto that story below) That story is still visited heavily and the response continues to this day. I did the same thing too often when I started in woodworking, often spending enough to buy two of the good tool as I "worked my way up" to it. I know people have to abide by budgets but you just cannot discount common sense.

http://www.newwoodworker.com/costshoping.html

 

[kirkpj01]

My approach has been "Life is too short for cheap tools". Keep in mind that this is not the same as getting a good tool at a great price. Cheap tools ( cheaply made or poor quality) often ends up costing more time and frustration than I am willing to deal with.

 

[Mark Gottesman]

Ah yes. It still always comes down to time or money.

There is cheap = poorly made and there is cheap = getting a good deal. Like one of the sliding delta tenon sleds for $40. Or the free 1950's Craftsman tablesaw (in gorgeous Power Bronze) I got off CL that I spent the summer refurbing and is now a delight to use. In that case, I am sure it would have been cheaper to buy a working used saw, but would not have engendered the same warm feeling everytime I use it.

I will pass on a sentiment expressed by both a german blacksmith and a hungarian glass blower. Both came up through the european apprenticeship program.

Don't look at what a tool will cost you, look at what you will earn with it.

Granted they were looking at getting a premium custom product out the door, but for many of this forums members the cost can be offset by the enjoyment of using a tool that works. I feel for Andy in that he could not get that saw to do what he wanted. Obviously he spent a lot of quality time with it when he could have been working on other projects. It was all I could do to refrain from buying it. I would loved to have taken a crack at it, but I have a 10" Delta and an 18" Gillom that are in the refurb colum.

Yes, I shop at Horror Fright and I tend to stay away from big machinery with motors. Love their digital Calipers.

 

[CarvedTones]

I think one thing that makes it hard is human nature. We justify our actions to each other. So when you are new to this and talking to someone who spent $500 to buy something when you are considering buying what seems to be the same thing for $200, it's in the back of your mind that the person is defensive about having made that choice. And there are a few product categories where the differences really are insignificant for most uses. When we come into woodworking, we have seen this in other products. A base model vehicle from a reputable manufacturer will haul you and all your stuff around at a fraction of the cost of a high end model and may even be safer and last longer. In a lot of product categories the price varies widely based on elements that have nothing to do with functionality. I truly believed this was also the case with woodworking tools. I still think there is a little truth to it, but I have learned the hard way that the lower end stuff is often sadly lacking in basic functionality.

 

[CarvedTones]

Mark,

I did commiserate more over that saw than most of my cheap stuff. It was late 80s iron with nothing cracked or bent. I actually got it pretty darn close recently but it didn't hold. It may have been as simple as needing to really torque the main bolt; I don't know. It chose the wrong time to make the misalignment obvious and I got off the line at an unrecoverable spot cutting a hickory bow blank. I know ripping long hickory boards is tough on tools, but this had been a continual problem. I was actually going to post to my thread on alignment again early in the week and something caught my eye over in the classified column. Sure would like to have that, but where would I put it? Hmmm...

 

[DavidF]

Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't I guess. The first used tool I have ever bought was the auctioned Delta chop saw I just received. after a few nights messing with it, trying to tell my self it will do what I want, I gave up. I'll use the blade as it's a nice one, but the rest is going to be scrapped. I'm buying a new one at the weekend. So, say $40 for the blade and $50 for a club donation and $150 for a new saw....Ouch. Never again, but I was caught in the "I need it right now" syndrome and made a mistake buying it sight unseen, nobodies fault but my own.

 

[Gotcha6]

Some years ago I remember seeing a sign posted in a tractor dealer's repair shop. I've remembered it over the years and usually regretted it when I didn't follow it. It said:
"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."
Words I try to get my customers to heed but sadly less and less lately.

 

[merrill77]

an entire rainbow of choices

After reading through a bunch of these responses it struck me that we say things like good tool or cheap tool as it it is black and white, but in reality, there is a wide range of quality available. And that is a very good thing. Everyone gets to choose the right tool for their needs, with the right trade-off between quality and price for them.

I started out woodworking with what I would now consider to be cheap tools - low-end Craftsman and B&D. Why? That's what I could afford and that's what my dad had. When I bought my first router, I had to choose between getting the cheapest Porter Cable vs a Craftsman router, a pack of bits and a few other accessories. Since even the best router is useless without bits, the choice was simple. Of course, there is a plethora of tools that are cheap compared to Craftsman/B&D - the majority of the HF stuff comes to mind. At the other end of the spectrum, some Festool fans turn their noses up at Porter Cable and Dewalt.

I've upgraded most of my original set of tools and some people would say "you should have bought good ones the first time". I don't agree with that. They were decent tools and they got the job done. My first Craftsman cordless drill was with me through college and my first house...can't complain about that. And honestly at the time, choosing from the good tools would have been difficult because I didn't know enough to know what I needed/wanted - heck I didn't even know if I'd still be into woodworking 15 years later.

FWIW, I have a set of forstner bits from HF that I think are downright fantastic for what I paid. Same goes for the giant box-o-router-bits from MLCS. I have a Delta contractor TS that I thought was the Cadillac of saws when I bought it...and compared to the table-top TS I had before that, it is. I've built some pretty good furniture with it - it does everything I need. But many people here would consider it cheap.

In the end, the tools don't matter...what you do with them is what matters. I've seen some stunning pieces of work come out of shops that make me ashamed for the excess of tools in my shop.

 

[Woodman2k]

I agree with Chris on the cheap tool or good tool point but have to say that when I first started to acquire tools many years ago,firstly,there was alot less info available comparing the various tools available and secondly,China was not even considered as a source.If I remember correctly,Taiwan and Japan were the China of those days and HF had just started to sell tools out of salesmen's car trunks.I still have a set of large wrenches that I bought cheap and they are as poorly made as the stuff they sell today.My first table saw was a Craftsman 100 and it had as much weight to it as my high end Delta Contracters saw.The difference was in the accessories,like the fence and rails,the throat plate and total lack of dust control.In reality,with everybody trying to source somepart or all parts out of China or India every brand could be considered a crap shoot at any given time.At IR they have purchased vendor type factories to manufacture parts for our assembly process in Davidson and it amazes me with all the oversite what still gets passed on as good parts.Fit and Finish is the first thing to take a dive.There all ex-farmers over there and while they are cheap labor thats about all you can hope for.
Rant over,
Greg

 

[LeftyTom]

I buy cheap if I will use it once. If I intend to use the tool now and some months later, I will go for quality. Then again, as lots of folks know, a quality brand does not always equal a quality product. If I am really uncertain, I will look for the weaknesses of the tool.

 

[Bas]

One good thing about cheap tools is that it helps you figure out what's important. My first router was a cheap Skil one. It worked OK for things like rounding over an edge, but it did not have soft start, had some slop (not a big fan of variable depth dadoes...), top heavy etc. Sold it on Craig's List for close to 70% of new, and knew exactly what to replace it with. If I had just bought a more expensive tool from the start, I might have gotten lucky or gotten the wrong thing. And lost a lot more money in the process. Like a jointer. Never having owned one, I figured I'd start with a Grizzly 6". I had read all the arguments of 6" vs. 8". Guess what - my next tool is probably going to be a 12" J/P combo. With shelix head. That smaller jointer and Ridgid lunchbox planer have gotten me through a whole lot of fun woodworking, and taught me exactly what I want next.

Usually, buying cheap and then having to replace it with what you should have bought to begin with is a losing proposition. But that also assumes infinite capital. I bought a bunch of cheap HF clamps when I was starting to assemble my tool collection. Not the best, not always the most friendly to use, but they got the job done. Once I had the essentials, I could afford to spend some money on some nice JET parallel clamps. There is nothing wrong with upgrading as you go, and you get to do a whole lot of woodworking in the process. Or you can buy a SawStop from day 1, then save up for another year (and do nothing but rip boards for entertainment) until you can afford some clamps, a router and a few bits to make a bookcase.

There are some exceptions. Buying a cheap biscuit joiner guarantees you won't use it. It's a lousy tool unless it's accurate. Likewise, the only use for a poor saw blade is cutting PT wood and laminate. HF sand paper is equally awful. On some things you just can't economize.

 

[dkeller_nc]

My thought here is that it sensitively depends on what tool you're talking about. Modern manufacturing at high volume has given us two things - extraordinary quality at extraordinarily low prices, and extraordinarily crappy tools at even lower prices.

Most people seem to rely on their instincts - if you're buying the cheapest possible tool in a given category, you're probably right to expect reduced performance and reduced lifetime. And in some cases, poor cutomer service. There was recently a quite long thread on Sawmill Creek bemoaning the inability of the poster to have a warranty fulfilled on a Rigid ROS without extraordinary documentation and a long period of time waiting through automated phone cues.

I, like probably everyone else on this forum that's been in woodworking a while have replaced several major power tools with much higher quality, and considerably more expensive price tags. I certainly wish I'd done it right the first time, because it'd been cheaper in the long run.

The one category that I've experience with that bears commenting on is hand tools (the non powered kind). Much more so than high-volume manufactured power tools, the elcheapo hand tools in the local big box store are simply not functional, or barely functional at best. This is the one category where if you don't have the money to buy a new tool from a reputable small manufacturer like Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen, you're far better off saving your cash until you do have the funds, or buying and learning to re-hab an antique.