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Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap
I wouldn't get wound around the spindle over wholesale price. It's tough to get into the stores at anything above $20 to $25 for basic pens. I don't think it has much to do with local turners underselling as much as foreign competition. I have almost completely displaced foriegn cr*p with my pens in a local shop, but I had to be competitive on price to get in. The way I see it, by buying kits in bulk (on sale), turning on equipment that I'd own anyway, using utilities at pennies an hour, and using supplies that get cheaper the more I use 'em, I'm not doing too bad. It becomes a margins game. Sell a bunch, displace the foreign junk, and have fun. I do however charge a premium for the good stuff i.e. burl, spalted, fountain pens, etc.
My two cents....
My two cents....
OK,
I've just got my first Corporate sale. To the company I work for. They have agreed to buy 4 pens a year (one a quarter) to give as part of a leadership award.
Now the pens I am using are the American Screw Cap Fountain Pens from Woodcraft. Cost of the kit is about $15.00 bucks on sale, I think. I am using a simple Cocabola blank, with a rosewood pen case. Not anything real fancy. They did however want to go with the fountain pen because it was a little different.
I will be delivering the first pen next week. Actually, I want to make and sell them all four pens at one time.
Because of the material about $23.00, with kit, case and blank, and the fact that I have no clue of what to charge them. I was looking at about $35.00 each.
Does anyone think this is to much? I too feel very guilty asking someone to pay for something I like to make.
I did sell a simple Olivewood euro style pen with case a few months ago for $25.00. The guy I sold it to just came to me this week and wants another. So I guess that was a fair price.
Oh, by the way. I do not consider my work even close to the caliber of what I have seen in this form from DaveO or EagleSC. They are simple kits with simple blanks.
Any feed back is welcome.
I've just got my first Corporate sale. To the company I work for. They have agreed to buy 4 pens a year (one a quarter) to give as part of a leadership award.
Now the pens I am using are the American Screw Cap Fountain Pens from Woodcraft. Cost of the kit is about $15.00 bucks on sale, I think. I am using a simple Cocabola blank, with a rosewood pen case. Not anything real fancy. They did however want to go with the fountain pen because it was a little different.
I will be delivering the first pen next week. Actually, I want to make and sell them all four pens at one time.
Because of the material about $23.00, with kit, case and blank, and the fact that I have no clue of what to charge them. I was looking at about $35.00 each.
Does anyone think this is to much? I too feel very guilty asking someone to pay for something I like to make.
I did sell a simple Olivewood euro style pen with case a few months ago for $25.00. The guy I sold it to just came to me this week and wants another. So I guess that was a fair price.
Oh, by the way. I do not consider my work even close to the caliber of what I have seen in this form from DaveO or EagleSC. They are simple kits with simple blanks.
Any feed back is welcome.
Way to go Dave, its a start:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap
If you are trying to make a living doing woodwork, 35.00 is too cheap with 23.00 worth of material in it. If you are doing it as a hobby and feel like you are covering your costs (do not forget about operating your machines and finishing supplies) and are happy with that price then it is a fair price.
Years ago, I read somewhere that you should get at least 3x the cost of materials out of a project. But this is today--maybe it should be 4x.
On the ethical side----check the market price for comparable products. Try not to slice the man's throat that is trying to make a living at it.
Just my opinion---------------Jerry
Wayne, American FP aren't easy kits to assemble. They are generally turned B2B but cutting the tenon for the CB and making sure the ink cartridge or ink pump is properly installed with the nib isn't the easiest.
The cost of that kit is 4-5 times as much as the kits I have sold pens with.
If your materials is costing $23.00 then you should be getting around $60 for the pens and not feel guilty in any way. I have about $6-7 in materials in the pens I've sold and I feel I am turning a profit with the $20 I've sold them for.
I don't count the fun that I have turning as labor so that isn't factored in my profit/loss table :-D :-D
BTW, I am sure that your pens are as nice as what I've turned, I am just a newbie and just learning.
Dave
J
jeff...
Wayne, American FP aren't easy kits to assemble. They are generally turned B2B but cutting the tenon for the CB and making sure the ink cartridge or ink pump is properly installed with the nib isn't the easiest.
Dave
Are you speaking english? :lol:
If you are trying to make a living doing woodwork, 35.00 is too cheap with 23.00 worth of material in it. If you are doing it as a hobby and feel like you are covering your costs (do not forget about operating your machines and finishing supplies) and are happy with that price then it is a fair price.
Years ago, I read somewhere that you should get at least 3x the cost of materials out of a project. But this is today--maybe it should be 4x.
On the ethical side----check the market price for comparable products. Try not to slice the man's throat that is trying to make a living at it.
Just my opinion---------------Jerry
Just as an example; I priced the dining room table at 3 x material cost estimated at the time at $400. This turned out to be under priced because of having to use 8/4 for everything, but the deal was done by then. So $1,200 ish for material. I then estimated, again right or wrong; only time will tell! at 40 hrs, I priced this at $40 / hr so $2,800 all in, I called it $3,000 including design time etc. It seemed a lot at the time, but as Eagle said, they understood the value of owning and helping to create a custom piece that they are NEVER going to see for sale anywhere else. I will no doubt be off on the hours, but at the end of the day I am happy and they are happy and that may lead to more work from them or friends of theirs that see the table and hear the story of how they got it made.
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please lets not talk about underquoting on jobs, not after the current kitchen MichaelGarner and I are working on:BangHead:
I think materials have come out at more than twice what we originally figured, and after all the labor we are putting in, I think we may get about $1/hr.
to our accountants: Do energy drinks qualify as a 'cost of doing business'?
I think materials have come out at more than twice what we originally figured, and after all the labor we are putting in, I think we may get about $1/hr.
to our accountants: Do energy drinks qualify as a 'cost of doing business'?
M
McRabbet
You guys should re-examine how you calculate your materials, or cut your goofs by 50%! I usually estimate to the nearest full sheet on plywood and rarely buy an extra sheet; on solid wood, I usually buy FAS S2S and purchase about 20% extra to allow for waste. I also do accurate CAD drawings of all my cabinets and do a piece-by-piece takeoff as input to Cutlist Plus to create my estimate. The customer gets this for free, but I don't underestimate materials.
Labor is another thing and you guys are overpaid. :roll:
As a career salesman I feel the need to chime in here. I completely agree with Eagle's statement that it is easier to sell down than up. The important aspect to keep in mind is your market. The quality I see turned out here is much different than the "production" quality work you get most places that is marketed as "handmade". Do you want to position yourself as just a notch or so above "production" or do you want to position yourself as your work truly exists: superior; as we see your work? The problem with evaluating our own work is that we know where all of the flaws are. As a result we tend to devalue the work of our hands. The true market value of a product is revealed once it is purchased. Dave, if you've been selling your pens for $40-$50, even if that is just to friends and family, then perhaps that is a good estimate of a starting point for the value of your work. In any case I personally would be reluctant to discount deeply. IIRC there is/used to be a high-end store at Cameron Village that sells custom pens ~ $50-$95 that are no better than what I've seen turned out here. Perhaps the real question is one of intent: do you really want to simply fund your habit or sell your work for what it's really worth? The danger of the former is one I see constantly in my business. People are so greedy to make a sale that they discount so deeply that the market gets depressed, making it hard for anyone to sell at a decent profit. Probably not much chance of that here, but I'm so gun-shy of this I'd go in high and come down. It's a lot easier to do that than to ask for more.
MTCW, YMMV
MTCW, YMMV
As far as the pen question, I have found that 5x the pen kit cost is the going retail price at most venues. The 3x rule really only applies to lower skilled carpentry projects. Generally, craft items retail in the 4x to 8x range with occasional much higher premiums for true orginal art work.
I have to say that I agree with a lot of what Eagle said and what Jerry said about not cutting the throat of those of us that are trying our darnest to make a go of it. I was a slow, garage shop, learner myself. Under valued my stuff and failed to fully account for all the overhead cost. I didn't realize how my pricing effected the livelyhood of others as well as myself. It has been a struggle to raise prices on my craft items. On craft items the selling/marketing cost averages 20-30%. That along with increases in material and fuel cost keeps me from ever getting ahead.
With furniture and custom items, I run into customers that after spending my time to travel and work up an estimate, give the job to a friend of a friend who does it for slightly more that material cost. That wouldn't be a problem if the hobiest work was subpar but it usually is just as good or better because much more unpaid time is spent on the project. I spent 10 hours week before last traveling to measure and working up estimates to have this type thing happen. I'm getting killed by folks doing the exact same thing I use to do, to "get tool money".
I've said all of this to say, next time you price something, please think about all of us that are struggling to just keep our shop bills paid much less take a pay check home. All woodworkers will do much better if you do.
Rob
Remember the only reason that lawyers make what they do is because they all charge a big price, stick together, and demand it.
I have to say that I agree with a lot of what Eagle said and what Jerry said about not cutting the throat of those of us that are trying our darnest to make a go of it. I was a slow, garage shop, learner myself. Under valued my stuff and failed to fully account for all the overhead cost. I didn't realize how my pricing effected the livelyhood of others as well as myself. It has been a struggle to raise prices on my craft items. On craft items the selling/marketing cost averages 20-30%. That along with increases in material and fuel cost keeps me from ever getting ahead.
With furniture and custom items, I run into customers that after spending my time to travel and work up an estimate, give the job to a friend of a friend who does it for slightly more that material cost. That wouldn't be a problem if the hobiest work was subpar but it usually is just as good or better because much more unpaid time is spent on the project. I spent 10 hours week before last traveling to measure and working up estimates to have this type thing happen. I'm getting killed by folks doing the exact same thing I use to do, to "get tool money".
I've said all of this to say, next time you price something, please think about all of us that are struggling to just keep our shop bills paid much less take a pay check home. All woodworkers will do much better if you do.
Rob
Remember the only reason that lawyers make what they do is because they all charge a big price, stick together, and demand it.
I have always seen two problems with pricing and selling work; one is the education of the consumer as to why they should invest in higher quality work and the other is being able to make my work worth the extra. I ask my self the question "why should they buy my work over a mass produced product which, although we might like to think so, is often not of poor quality, but built in an environment geared to profit with the initial investment in machinery etc that has enabled them to produce at a good price. If I can't answer my own question positively then I won't bother trying to make the piece. If it has enough unique elements to it that restrict the potential purchaser to only being able to get what they want from me then I can price accordingly as I have a "captive" market. If we can't compete in the market producing the "exact same" product then we can't gripe about it, we must make a better product and tell people why it's better, bearing in mind they may not be able to detect the subtleties that only we know.
David, you eloquently made a point I meant to bring out in my original post but failed to include. It is in the uniqueness of the pens and work seen here that allows higher prices. If our work is not different, significantly different than mass produced pieces, then we cannot expect to charge accordingly. However, when one is able to customize, or use top shelf materials and workmanship, or include one-of-a-kind aspects to the piece, the cost should reflect said craftsmanship. I believe most people understand and appreciate this.
Hey DaveO thanks for the company last Sat. I had the pleasure of sitting down for a cup of coffee with DaveO and Jimmy from "Kid's Making It" last Saturday and then Dave showed me the pens he had over at Barouke. What a cool place, if you go bring a camera, you'll see too many ideas for new projects then you can remember. Thanks again Dave, Jim
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