Fire extinguisher in shop w/o climate control

cpw

Charles
Corporate Member
We were looking into putting a fire extinguisher out in the shop but there's no A/C and it will just bake in the sun all summer. We have no idea how hot it will get inside and all of the models we have looked at say not to store àbove 120° F.

Any advice or experience in this realm would be appreciated.
 

Oka

Casey
Corporate Member
Keep it away from direct sunlight. increase the R rating of the insulation if mounting to an exterior wall where the Fire Extinguisher is going. Preferably stick on an interior wall or support column.
Some other simple ways to address this:
1 - if you put it in a box, line it with some neoprene insulation. We do that on the metal ones. If you use wood not necessary.
2- Cheap fan never turn it off. In Hawaii this is what a lot of people use. Simple air movement
 
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Charles
Corporate Member
Keep it away from direct sunlight. increase the R rating of the insulation if mounting to an exterior wall where the Fire Extinguisher is going. Preferably stick on an interior wall or support column.
Some other simple ways to address this:
1 - if you put it in a box, line it with some neoprene insulation. We do that on the metal ones. If you use wood not necessary.
2- Cheap fan never turn it off. In Hawaii this is what a lot of people use. Simple air movement
It's wood frame. The walls are insulated with fiberglass & sheathed inside with 7/16" OSB, but there's no insulation under the roof.
 

Charles Lent

Charley
Corporate Member
Mount it low and near the exit door. That way you can make a decision, while on your way out, if the fire is small enough to turn back and fight the fire with it, or just completely exit the building and wait for the fire trucks. Putting it in the middle of your shop will do you no good if that's where the fire is. Near the exit is the best place. As for a safe temperature for the extinguisher, we don't get temperatures here in NC that's going to affect the extinguisher., especially if it's in a building with insulated walls. Heat rises, so the shop temperature at or below door knob height is never going to get above 100 deg. A class ABC dry powder extinguisher would be your best choice to fight a woodshop fire of wood, solvent, or electrical types, and the size of the extinguisher for your shop should be a minimum of 5 pounds content weight. The smaller sizes extinguishers that are available will just barely put out an office size waste can fire and you only get one chance at it, so it's best to have a larger extinguisher, especially if there is no other backup extinguisher. My shop backup extinguisher is the water tap and hose just outside my shop door. You can use an ABC class extinguisher on any kind of fire in your shop, but it leaves a power mess to clean up. Water makes a mess too, but water dries up.

I'm a retired fire marshal, arson investigator, and firefighting instructor, having been in the fire service since high school.

Charley
 

Pop Golden

New User
Pop
AMEN CHARLEY!
I spent my last 10 years of a 29 year stint with the Charlotte Fire Dept. making training videos.

Pop
 
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Charles
Corporate Member
Mount it low and near the exit door. That way you can make a decision, while on your way out, if the fire is small enough to turn back and fight the fire with it, or just completely exit the building and wait for the fire trucks. Putting it in the middle of your shop will do you no good if that's where the fire is. Near the exit is the best place. As for a safe temperature for the extinguisher, we don't get temperatures here in NC that's going to affect the extinguisher., especially if it's in a building with insulated walls. Heat rises, so the shop temperature at or below door knob height is never going to get above 100 deg. A class ABC dry powder extinguisher would be your best choice to fight a woodshop fire of wood, solvent, or electrical types, and the size of the extinguisher for your shop should be a minimum of 5 pounds content weight. The smaller sizes extinguishers that are available will just barely put out an office size waste can fire and you only get one chance at it, so it's best to have a larger extinguisher, especially if there is no other backup extinguisher. My shop backup extinguisher is the water tap and hose just outside my shop door. You can use an ABC class extinguisher on any kind of fire in your shop, but it leaves a power mess to clean up. Water makes a mess too, but water dries up.

I'm a retired fire marshal, arson investigator, and firefighting instructor, having been in the fire service since high school.

Charley

That's the kind of authoritative answer I was hoping for.

Thanks
 

Bas

Recovering tool addict
Bas
Corporate Member
I'm a retired fire marshal, arson investigator, and firefighting instructor, having been in the fire service since high school.
Yeah but I read something on the internet once that said something different. And the great thing about science is that we can have a difference of opinion on what's real and both are valid.

:)

Great advice Charles, saving this post. The size of the extinguisher definitely matters.
 

Charles Lent

Charley
Corporate Member
"Great advice Charles, saving this post. The size of the extinguisher definitely matters."

Especially if you only have one.

Another thing to remember. Dry powder in extinguishers will settle and cake over time and/or vibration. Every so often it's a good idea to pick up and then rock the extinguisher end to end several times to fluff up the powder so it comes out completely when you need to squeeze the handle. Also, remembering to do this while on your way between the extinguisher hanger and the fire will make the dry chemical come out of the extinguisher better.

When you need to use a fire extinguisher, aim it at the bottom front of the fire and while the powder is coming out, you want to use the spray much like you would use a broom to push the fire off of the surface that is burning. Shooting at the flames and smoke does nothing. You need the dry powder to separate the flames from whatever is burning. Especially if it is a burning liquid fire, be careful not to let the flames circle and get behind and/or under you. These dry chemical fire extinguishers work best when the fire is 3-5' from the extinguisher, so don't squeeze the handle until you are close enough. You will only have about 5 seconds of use from a 5 lb. fire extinguisher. Plan on using it all on the fire and don't waste it, because if you release the valve before the fire is fully out, the gas pressure will leak out through the powder filled valve and there won't be much, if any pressure left to use the extinguisher again, even if it still has 3 lbs of powder still in it. Be certain that the fire is out or the extinguisher is empty before releasing the valve handle.

If you fail to put the fire out, remember that the fire trucks will only be coming, if someone has called them. Also, remember that it's going to be 5-20 minutes for them to get to you if you live in a rural area, and maybe even longer. Can you save anything while waiting for them? Don't risk your life, but sometimes moving things away from the fire can reduce the loss. (like cars and trucks parked near the building). Is there water available? Can you attempt to fight the fire with a hose or something while waiting for the fire trucks and do this without getting hurt?

Four other firemen and I once put out a fire in the wall of a house next to the chimney by using a nearby shovel to break open the wall, and then collecting snow off the front lawn and packing snowballs into the wall, while waiting for the fire trucks. We had it almost out, and the front lawn almost devoid of snow before the fire trucks got there. Quick thinking and ingenuity can sometimes save the day, or at least significantly reduce the loss.

Charley
 
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Pop Golden

New User
Pop
Hi Charlie, 2 things: We ounce had a kitchen fire. When it was out we found the home owner dead with the running water hose still in his hand. Fighting a fire with a lawn hose can be a problem. The size of the fire makes the difference between fight & flight. Next, if they use water remember to NOT spray the base of the fire. That will only push it around. Unlike the fire extinguisher which goes to the fire base. Spray the water over the top of the fire. whip it around to let the water deplete the oxygen.

Pop
 

Charles Lent

Charley
Corporate Member
When using water to fight a fire, it's best in almost all cases to make it a spray rather than a straight stream, but I don't agree with you about not spraying the base of the fire to put the fire out. In a room with the fire well advanced and reaching the ceiling and rolling across it, yes. Start by spraying the ceiling and then straight ahead to knock the fire down before spraying the base of the fire, but this should be a fireman's job with full body protection and not how you fight a sudden small fire with a fire extinguisher or garden hose. When it's this large, the garden hose isn't going to do much either, so it's best to leave fighting it to the firemen. Your safety should come well before controlling the fire damage. This size fire is well beyond the size of most fires at their very beginning, and not my intent when conveying how to fight small fires with a fire extinguisher.

In most cases, a fire begins very small. A short circuit, spontaneous combustion, or a spark that ignites something is the likely origin of most woodshop fires. If you are there when it happens, you have a very good chance of putting the fire out with a fire extinguisher of the right type. If it's an electrical fire, just cutting off the power usually lets the fire go out or at least keeps it from getting larger. If you fail or flee the fire, standing outside the door and spraying water at the fire would be the next step. At least you can slow the fire spread some this way while waiting for the firemen. Spraying at the lower part of the area that's burning will get you the best results in any case. When it's climbing the wall and across the ceiling you aren't going to succeed with a fire extinguisher or a garden hose. If the fire volume is larger than a 55 gallon drum in size you shouldn't even be in the building any more, no matter what you are trying to fight the fire with. It's a job for a fully equipped fire department and trained firefighters wearing safety equipment and breathing packs to fight it.

I've had one fire in my woodshop about 25 years ago. Lightning hit a tall pine tree just outside the shop door, blowing a 4" wide slot in the bark down the tree and out one root into the ground. The top 16' or so of this tree was blown off and landed behind my shop. The metal skin on the shop personnel door became charged from the nearby lightning and from the top corners of the door it arced up through the soffit of the roof just above the door, cutting two slots in the plywood soffit and getting into the shop wiring inside and above the door. In the shop electrical panel there were marks of it jumping from the panel cabinet to the Neutral buss, so both the Neutral and Ground wires carried the lightning through the cable under my driveway my house to the main house electric panel on the outside of the far side of my house, a total of 170' from the shop. But there was no fire. I inspected everything and it all seemed to be OK.

The following day, I was sitting at the workbench in my shop and suddenly the electric outlet for the radial arm saw arced and started burning, with flames going up the paper cover over the insulation (no inside sheetrock yet). I jumped up and turned off the circuit breaker and the arcing stopped, but the paper was still burning. I quickly filled a small can with water and threw the water at the fire. I was a better shot that day than usual, because it put the fire out with just that 1/2 quart or so of water. Then I tried to unplug the saw, but the plug wouldn't come out of the outlet. The pins on the plug and the poles of the outlet had welded themselves together. So I had to replace both the plug and the outlet, but the saw and the rest of my shop wiring proved to be fine. I tested the wiring with a hi-pot tester to test for any damaged insulation and found no other damage, other than the saw outlet and plug. I have since covered the wall with 1/2" plywood, and repaired the plywood soffit above the shop door. I have also driven a ground rod just outside the shop and connected a #6 ga copper wire from the shop panel ground terminal to it (at the time, this wasn't required by code, but it is now).

Had I not been sitting there at the workbench, my shop would likely have burned down that day, but because I was there and able to work quickly to put the fire out while it was still very small, my shop was saved. All I needed was quick thinking and 1/2 quart of water thrown in a way to wet the area of the fire. I have a 10 pound dry chemical ABC type extinguisher, as well as a 20 pound CO2 BC type extinguisher just inside my shop as well as the garden hose just outside the door, That day, I made a quick decision not to use the dry chemical and just to use the water because of the size of the fire. My next step, if the water failed, would have been to grab the dry chemical extinguisher. If that had failed I would have been outside the shop calling the fire department and then using the garden hose from outside the door until they arrived or it got too hot for me to be there.

Fire Extinguisher Classifications - This shows why an ABC type extinguisher is best for a woodworking shop, since it's good for all 3 types of fires that could likely occur there.

Class A fire = Burning paper and wood.
Class B fire = Burning liquids, solvents, paint, plastic, etc.
Class C fire = Burning electrical (when electricity is still present - remove the electricity and it's a class B insulation fire)
Class D fire = Burning metal (like magnesium and titanium). You won't need this protection if a very small magnesium tool catches fire, but
some cars have large magnesium parts. Even these didn't always work for car fires, so we chopped the burning pieces out
and buried them. By this point there is nothing left of the car anyway.


Well, this is well above what most people need to know, but it might help those who are interested in reading it. I hope you never need this knowledge, but maybe it will do some of you some good in the future. Please be fire safe.

Charley
 

Pop Golden

New User
Pop
Hi Charley, Another point, People have no idea the smoke damage from even a small fire can cause. I went in a home were a small fire had occurred. An somewhat inebriated guy put a cigarette in the trash can next to his bed. The can was under the night stand. The bottom of the night stand was slightly charred, the fire went up the wall about a foot wide, and out on the celling about 18 inches. We used an extinguisher to put it out. When I walked the house everything was covered with fine dust from the fire. If you do have a fire even a small one plan on a lot of clean up.

Pop
 

ScottM

Scott
Staff member
Corporate Member
I bit off topic but a couple years back a friend left a chicken cooking on the stove and forgot about it. When she returned several hour later the house was filled with smoke so thick that she could barely get two feet into the door. The fire depart got there within minutes, removed the pot and chicken and turned on their big fans. The pot was actually still usable. None of the smoke damage was covered by insurance. Reason being "no flame no claim." Check the fine print.
 

Gofor

Mark
Corporate Member
Although I agree with having the main extinguisher near the door to your shop, it does not hurt to have another one closer to the center, in case a fire starts between you and the only exit. The main purpose being to knock the fire down enough for you to exit and call 911. If reasonable, close the door on your way out to minimze the amount of oxygen available to the fire. Do the same if you exit a house fire. Dry chemical (i.e ABC) extinguishers work by stealing the oxygen from the fire, so realize in a small area, it may also deprive you of oxygen as well. Needless to say you don't want to be inhaling that powder.

To tag onto Charley's and Pop's posts for fires in the home, the fumes coming off whatever is burning, particularly furniture, carpet, drapes, etc, may be just as deadly as the fire, so don't think you are safe standing in the doorway trying to fight it. Stay low, because the fire is bringing in fresh oxygen at the bottom of the doorway (which is actually drawing the fire towards you) and expelling the heated fumes out the top. Putting out a burning waste basket or smothering a burning skillet on the stove are probably okay, but if the fire is going up the wall, GET OUT.

If you do have a shorted electrical outlet, and the fire is "out", it is still best to call the Fire Dept. They will check the wall and surrounding area with a thermal imaging camera to ensue there is nothing still smoldering inside the wall.

One final word: If the lithium-ion battery in your laptop, phone, or Prius catches fire, get put of the area and call the professionals (Fire Dept, not the Geek Squad). The fumes are highly toxic; explosion from the oxygen/hydrogen being released is possible; the temperatures are extreme; and normal fire suppression does not work.

Let's all just hope we never have need to put any of this into practice!
 

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