experiments with nails & vinegar

[smallboat]

after reading here about ebonizing with iron dissolved in vinegar I thought I'd give it a try.
this summer when I replaced some deck boards I threw the old nails in a jar of vinegar and its been sitting since.
more research led me to purchase some Bark Tan to help with the process http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/ebonizing_wood

These two items along with an oak bowl that I liked but didn't love created the perfect storm and I dove in this evening.

Figured I would try other woods for comparison
Left to right are ash, cherry, maple and cypress

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On the strips I left a bit without the bark tan to see the difference with and without. without is not great.
I also tried the bowl- far right here

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its worth noting that the rough scrap wood accepted the dye much more readily than the smoother surface of the bowl which was ready for final finish.
I went back and roughed up the bowl surface with 120 and applied the solutions again
Its looking better.
Will post a pic or two when I get it where I want.

I really like the way the ash and cherry worked out, especially the ash. will be interested to try some maple that is smoother than my chainsaw left it.
As stated in the Popular Woodworking article, the magic seems to be-

• apply the bark tan solution,
• let it soak in,
• wipe off excess,
• apply the iron solution,
• soak,
• wipe,
• apply a second coat of bark tan. That's when the real black happens.

If you want to try it, I highly recommend the article in the link- lots of info there that I've glossed over.

 

[smallboat]

Here's the bowl - such as it is.

I like the way it came out but I believe next time I'll try not to drop it...

Next step is to apply some super blond shellac over the black. I'm hoping it will punch up the color and make it look ricer/deeper.
We'll see. Nothing to loose at this point.

​

 

[ehpoole]

The black should indeed come out looking much darker afterwards so long as there is no interaction between the black ferric oxide and the clear finish. Definitely looking forward to seeng your final result and documentation of your process.

 

[LeftyTom]

That can be used with Greene and Greene pieces.

 

[Sam Knight]

Thank you for posting this as I have often thought about trying out the ebonizing process for some projects like knobs on boxes and such.

 

[Raymond]

Thank you, smallboat. I remember reading that Popular Woodworking article the first time it came out but did not give too much thought. Now, seeing the effects your photos show it is a deal more enlightening. One can find the "quebracho bark powder on Amazon:
https://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=quebracho+bark+powder

 

[Jim Wallace]

I think you'll find that the end grain on a bowl will always have a darker appearance than the side grain just because all the liquid you put on it is going to soak in deeper. If you want to experiment further you can try a wash of Logwood extract or Brazilwood extract before the vinegar solution. These are available from http://www.woodfinishingenterprises.com/index.html. George Frank calls the vinegar solution "liquid nightmare." He also suggests several other mordants to try in his book "Woodfinishing with George Frank." Whatever finish you put on after dyeng will deepen the color.

 

[Jeff]

I'm not hijacking your thread but I'll offer some information that may help as you experiment. This ebonizing method is only skin deep and that's my word of caution to you from my experience. I've read that article by Brian Boggs a few times which is a good introduction to the process and it can be simplified with a little chemical understanding of how/why it works.

Tannic acid in wood + iron = iron tannate = black color.

1. Dissolve tannic acid in distilled water (1 oz/cup) which is a concentrated solution. Forget about the fancy tea solutions made from tree bark; they're just dilute forms of tannic acid.

https://www.amazon.com/Tannic-Purified-Powder-Mixed-Tannins/dp/B008A9MFHY

Brushed on tannic acid solution after it dried (white oak on the right and pine on the left). Then the iron solution 2x (steel wool/vinegar).

 

[Woodmolds]

I'm not hijacking your thread but I'll offer some information that may help as you experiment. This ebonizing method is only skin deep and that's my word of caution to you from my experience. I've read that article by Brian Boggs a few times which is a good introduction to the process and it can be simplified with a little chemical understanding of how/why it works.

Tannic acid in wood + iron = iron tannate = black color.

1. Dissolve tannic acid in distilled water (1 oz/cup) which is a concentrated solution. Forget about the fancy tea solutions made from tree bark; they're just dilute forms of tannic acid.

https://www.amazon.com/Tannic-Purified-Powder-Mixed-Tannins/dp/B008A9MFHY

Brushed on tannic acid solution after it dried (white oak on the right and pine on the left). Then the iron solution 2x (steel wool/vinegar).

Just as an aside tannic acid or tannin is naturally occurring in oaks and lesser degrees in other woods. The tannins present in oaks are why oak is used to make wine barrels. Tannin is a type of preservative that helps red wines keep for long periods of time. The more tannin present the longer it keeps. It gives red wine a sort of bite or dryness.

Another good link explaining "How To" http://www.iron-powder.com/iron-dye-ink-and-stain/

and here scroll down to Ferrous Sulfate http://www.woodfinishingenterprises.com/dyes.html

 

[CrealBilly]

I tried this vinegar and steel wool once, also tried india ink. My conclusion... there is a lot better, faster and easier way, it comes in a rattle can by the brand name of rustoleum just staying...

 

[smallboat]

Good point Crealbilly!

I looked at it in the clear light of morning and thought " is this different than flat black paint?"
On the ash and cherry i'd say yes- on parts of the oak maybe
I think a lot will depend on how I take it from here.
I see another round of experiments in the future


Super blond shellac
orange shellac
garnet shellac
BLO
Bees wax

any reasonable (or not so) combination of the above

should keep me busy for a while.
I'm considering black legs for my WIP cherry kitchen table
leaning towards ash

 

[Jeff]

I'm considering black legs for my WIP cherry kitchen table
leaning towards ash

Ahhh, your devious plan is emerging! Good. Why ash for the table legs if they're destined to be black? You could consider a jet black TransTint dye (#6023) instead of black paint or the iron/tea witch's brew.

http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/transtint-liquid-dyes/

Tell us more about your planned experiments with these...

Super blond shellac
orange shellac
garnet shellac
BLO
Bees wax

 

[Jim Wallace]

One of the reasons to experiment with these chemicals in stead of using paint is that the results are not uniform. The grain of the wood is clearly visible, and, perhaps, enhanced by the uneven uptake of the dye. Note that these are not stains, which are like diluted paint, i.e. pigment in suspension, which obscures the grain, they are dyes which actually change the chemistry of the wood as far as they penetrate resulting in a change in color of the wood.

 

[Willemjm]

One of the reasons to experiment with these chemicals in stead of using paint is that the results are not uniform. The grain of the wood is clearly visible, and, perhaps, enhanced by the uneven uptake of the dye. Note that these are not stains, which are like diluted paint, i.e. pigment in suspension, which obscures the grain, they are dyes which actually change the chemistry of the wood as far as they penetrate resulting in a change in color of the wood.

Always fun to experiment, but have to agree with a previous poster. About 8 drops of black Transtint Dye in 4oz of lacquer seal coat thinned 15% with lacquer thinner and you get the same effect, with the wood grain showing real pretty. No hassle and takes a few minutes to do.

However, this is a hobby and it is always fun to experiment, so enjoy.

 

[smallboat]

about a year ago I did some experiments with Transtint dyes and was very pleased with the results.
thought I would give this a try, guess I'm just a curious sort.

wiped on some BLO this evening left some areas un treated and will apply shellac over both to compare with and without.

 

[nn4jw]

This type of experimentation gives one a certain appreciation for some of the old finishes before you could run down to your local hardware store and just buy whatever you needed. People are still trying to figure out the original finishes on Strativarius violins. I've played around some with Japanning while retoring some old planes. More difficult and time consuming than rattle cans? Well, yes, but sometimes it depends on just what you are trying to do.

 

[Jeff]

thought I would give this a try, guess I'm just a curious sort.

As an organic chemist I like your experimentation. Pics of your WIP of course.

 

[Chilihead]

I've use this quebracha bark tea and vinegar method several times with great results. Here it is on a Boggs side chair I built.

Here are my thoughts on it:
- is it more involved than spray paint? Yup, but this color won't chip or scratch off because it is in the wood not on top of it. So even after this chair gets some dings from everyday use, the black color stays. I also think it gives more depth to the black because it does not obscure the grain.
-there is absolutely no distinguishable difference on the endgrain versus long grain color on my chair. You do get that difference when using a stain due to the different absorption rate of endgrain. This is not a stain though. The color comes from a chemical change in the cells of the wood, so the color is consistent all over.
-as others have mentioned, wood type does matter somewhat. Species like oak have a high tannic content already. In my experimentation, it is not crucial to add the tannic tea ( or any comparable tannic acid wash) to get the oak to turn black. There is usually enough tannin in the oak already for the iron vinegar solution to work on its own. However the tannic tea did help insure a more consistent color and did deepen the black when used on oak. The chair shown here is from soft maple. My understanding is that maple is low in tannin. So the tannic tea wash was essential in getting the deep consistent black color in this case.
-chalky until finished - similar to the way that aniline dye behaves, the iron vinegar solution looks glossy jet black when applied (take note the chemical process takes some time, so you'll see the color change over 5-15min) yet once it is fully dry, it looks very dull and chalky. That will go away when the finish is applied, and it it will be rich and dark again.
-colorfast - I can't speak to the colorfast nature of Transtint dyes that some mentioned here b/c I have not used them. I've certainly seen aniline dyes I've used fade considerably over time. The iron vinegar method is very colorfast and should not fade.
- as mentioned previously the color change does not permeate the entire wood. It is only on the surface. However it does go deeper than a stain or dye and you can lightly sand it afterwards without blowing through the color if you're careful. ....and if you mess up and do sand through, it is easy to spot repair the color
- and one last tip I picked up from the master himself, Brian Boggs - the tea bark solution will raise the grain since it is water based, so plan for that. I've done a simple water rinse in the past to raise the grain, sanded it back, and then applied the coloring process. However Brian taught me that the grain does not raise much if any on scraped and planed surfaces. He was right! I had no raised grain issues on my chair since it is all spoke shaved and scraped. Sanded surfaces are a different story though due to the nature of how sandpaper abrades the surface.
Hope this helps.

 

[Rick M]

I've always used black transtint, mix a batch and spritz it on with a hand sprayer, the more I put on the darker it gets. But I have a lot of respect for anyone who learns and preserves these older techniques.