Burial Urn Project Update, Sept. 25

[sawman101]

There has been no requests for burial urns from any of the cemeteries, or the State Veterans Cemetery office. I have made and delivered 2 urns to veterans at their request. Because everything that has been done to this point, has yielded no results, I have written a letter, which will go out Monday, to the NC State Departments of the Veterans Of Foreign Wars, American Legion , Disabled American Veterans, Amvets, and the office of Veterans Affairs service officer for Catawba County. I am appealing to each organization to make this community outreach project known to their membership. It has become apparent that the only way this project will work, is if the families of a veteran to be interred, must ask the cemetery staff for an urn. It's obvious at this point, the cemetery staffs are not going to be bothered by asking if the cremains are in an urn. It's difficult to deal with Government employees. This is an extra task for them, and has no bearing on their job performance, so we really cannot hold them to blame for not offering the urns when the families arrive for the committal service. We'll keep trying. I would like to make an appeal to any of the membership, who are active in your local veterans posts, to make the project known to the post membership.

 

[golfdad]

Keep yer head up Bruce....your dealing with Goverment, I hope we are having a display at the Exstravaganza along with a modified Urn to accept donations for this awesome project. Maybe even some thing we can display out of the trailer at all events would help too

 

[Jeremy Scuteri]

A modified Urn *with attention to security concerns* would be good way to get donations.

 

[thesource]

It seems like most of the posts about this are bashing the people you want to do something for you.

There has been no requests for burial urns from any of the cemeteries, or the State Veterans Cemetery office. I have made and delivered 2 urns to veterans at their request. Because everything that has been done to this point, has yielded no results, I have written a letter, which will go out Monday, to the NC State Departments of the Veterans Of Foreign Wars, American Legion , Disabled American Veterans, Amvets, and the office of Veterans Affairs service officer for Catawba County. I am appealing to each organization to make this community outreach project known to their membership. It has become apparent that the only way this project will work, is if the families of a veteran to be interred, must ask the cemetery staff for an urn. It's obvious at this point, the cemetery staffs are not going to be bothered by asking if the cremains are in an urn. It's difficult to deal with Government employees. This is an extra task for them, and has no bearing on their job performance, so we really cannot hold them to blame for not offering the urns when the families arrive for the committal service. We'll keep trying. I would like to make an appeal to any of the membership, who are active in your local veterans posts, to make the project known to the post membership.

 

[Vetteman9956]

It seems like most of the posts about this are bashing the people you want to do something for you.

Sorry Rick, I have to disagree.

Many people have invested much effort to do this project. I myself have donated over $2500 worth of laser time and feel that it isn't to much to expect these people to do what little they have been ask to do at the cemeteries. I can understand the frustration with them. We as a group are already doing 98% of the work and I think there is a difference between bashing and expecting a mimimal effort from them to make this happen for our vets.

 

[thesource]

Not that it matters, but I donated most of the lumber and milled it.
I'm just saying that "You get more flies with honey".
The people we want to get involved in this might be reading some of these posts.

Sorry Rick, I have to disagree.

Many people have invested much effort to do this project. I myself have donated over $2500 worth of laser time and feel that it isn't to much to expect these people to do what little they have been ask to do at the cemeteries. I can understand the frustration with them. We as a group are already doing 98% of the work and I think there is a difference between bashing and expecting a mimimal effort from them to make this happen for our vets.

 

[Raymond]

Just a thought but, we could also shed more light on this project if we provide information to the VA hospitals and treatment centers in NC. There are also, the Veterans Outreach Center, American Legion, VFW; the NC Statewide Independent Living Council (we could to see if our project can get listed on their website); there are a lot more and I think if we get together and make a list of these organizations and contact them about our project, we can reach more people.

If the veterans and their family members see the info, they might remember it and discuss it with the funeral directors or with the managers and the professionals at these organizations.

 

[Skymaster]

I thank you very very much for that material Rick

 

[JackLeg]

When this project began, it was my understanding that urns would be provided to "indigent" veterans whose cremains were being interred in card board boxes and other containers. We were supplying urns to them to honor their service and respect their families. The "key word" here was/is "indigent." If that is still the goal, then the 200+ urns that are assembled and/or in kit form will probably last a long, long time. I seriously doubt that North Carolina buries 200 indigent veterans in the next 10 years or so.

My contributions thus far have been in supplying cypress lumber and "road time" shuttling lumber, urns and parts back and forth across the state, meeting Skymaster and others as needed. I am happy to be a part of this project with my small efforts.

If we intend to begin offering urns at no charge to all the organizations mentioned, for anyone who wants one, we may exceed the capability of the NCWW community. As for what government will or can do for this, I wouldn't bet the farm on that. Our heart is in the right place. Let's continue to make our offering humbly.

:notworthy:

 

[sawman101]

Rick, it wasn't my intention to bash anyone in my post, and I want to apologize if it appeared so. My frustrations with the project must have shown, when I wrote it. All of us, are very thankful to everyone, who has donated time and material to the project.
From Reggie's post, I think I see why the project seems stalled. The project is to provide burial urns for the internment of ALL veterans, whose cremains are to be buried in any State or National Cemetery in NC. I'll reiterate the reason for the project. It has been learned that many veterans' cremains are being buried in cardboard boxes, plastic bags, coffee cans, and various other undignified containers. The reasons for this may be manifold, but mainly because the family of the deceased veteran cannot afford a burial urn. They generally cost from $400 and more. If the project was solely targeted to indigent veterans, than we should have produced 24 urns, and stopped. The reason the project was started was because of the veterans' cremains that weren't indigents, receiving this undignified final act. So, our goal was, and still is, to provide quality wooden burial urns for the internment of all veterans' cremains, where a dignified burial urn is not being provided, and only in NC State and National Veterans Cemeteries. The only way the veteran's surviving family can be made aware of, and offered an urn, is if the cemetery staff informs them. It would appear this isn't happening very often. From Reggie's post, I think perhaps the cemetery staffs don't understand the concept of the project, and think the urns are for indigent burials only. I will make another attempt to clarify the project to those cemetery staffs involved. Again, I apologize to you Rick, Reggie, and everyone else if I have not been clear enough. Feed back please! Let's get this thing back on the main tracks! I appreciate and salute every one of you for your time, material, and Herculean efforts to make this great and honorable project come to fruition! :icon_thum

 

[sawman101]

Keep yer head up Bruce....your dealing with Goverment, I hope we are having a display at the Exstravaganza along with a modified Urn to accept donations for this awesome project. Maybe even some thing we can display out of the trailer at all events would help too

I really like the idea Dirk, and I would be happy to put together a couple of urns just for that purpose. I would also have an eyebolt through the urn, and a chain so it could be fastened to the table leg with a lock. I want to make sure that it is OK with the BOD before proceeding thusly. One of the boxes can be kept in the trailer, along with the banner for the project. Coleman has offered to assist me in getting our flyers printed at a reasonable cost. I will try to take care of that shortly. I am planning to have a table set up with the urns, the banner, and flyers at the Extravaganza.

 

[JackLeg]

Sorry if I misunderstood. I have no problem with the program as stated.

Rick, it wasn't my intention to bash anyone in my post, and I want to apologize if it appeared so. My frustrations with the project must have shown, when I wrote it. All of us, are very thankful to everyone, who has donated time and material to the project.
From Reggie's post, I think I see why the project seems stalled. The project is to provide burial urns for the internment of ALL veterans, whose cremains are to be buried in any State or National Cemetery in NC. I'll reiterate the reason for the project. It has been learned that many veterans' cremains are being buried in cardboard boxes, plastic bags, coffee cans, and various other undignified containers. The reasons for this may be manifold, but mainly because the family of the deceased veteran cannot afford a burial urn. They generally cost from $400 and more. If the project was solely targeted to indigent veterans, than we should have produced 24 urns, and stopped. The reason the project was started was because of the veterans' cremains that weren't indigents, receiving this undignified final act. So, our goal was, and still is, to provide quality wooden burial urns for the internment of all veterans' cremains, where a dignified burial urn is not being provided, and only in NC State and National Veterans Cemeteries. The only way the veteran's surviving family can be made aware of, and offered an urn, is if the cemetery staff informs them. It would appear this isn't happening very often. From Reggie's post, I think perhaps the cemetery staffs don't understand the concept of the project, and think the urns are for indigent burials only. I will make another attempt to clarify the project to those cemetery staffs involved. Again, I apologize to you Rick, Reggie, and everyone else if I have not been clear enough. Feed back please! Let's get this thing back on the main tracks! I appreciate and salute every one of you for your time, material, and Herculean efforts to make this great and honorable project come to fruition! :icon_thum

 

[Jeremy Scuteri]

I really like the idea Dirk, and I would be happy to put together a couple of urns just for that purpose. I would also have an eyebolt through the urn, and a chain so it could be fastened to the table leg with a lock. I want to make sure that it is OK with the BOD before proceeding thusly. One of the boxes can be kept in the trailer, along with the banner for the project. Coleman has offered to assist me in getting our flyers printed at a reasonable cost. I will try to take care of that shortly. I am planning to have a table set up with the urns, the banner, and flyers at the Extravaganza.

The last time a donation urn was discussed, the only issue raised was security. If that can be handled, it should be okay.

 

[Skymaster]

Should be able to hinge the lid and possibly screw or bolt with nylock nuts, the urn to a table from the inside :} inside. Latch and lock on outside. Pie anna hinge work real gooder me thunks

 

[ehpoole]

The last time a donation urn was discussed, the only issue raised was security. If that can be handled, it should be okay.

Perhaps bolt it all down to the table, possibly with a long bolt or screw that extends through the bottom side of the table and into the box top/lid so that it can not be easily opened or removed from the table -- two bolts/screws spaced apart would be pretty well undefeatable (i.e. no ability to just rotate the box to loosen the bolt/screw) without someone physically unbolting it from the underside of the table, which should be adequate security wise. Just be sure to remove all money before inserting the bolts/screws so as not to punch a hole in any money (it should be easy enough to empty it beforehand). That said, nothing practical can ever be 100% secure. This, of course, assumes that the table is our own such that we can add a hole, or two, to it without issue. Just a thought, though.

I can certainly attest to how easily things can go missing from a display if someone passing by sees value in an item -- I have had models from dioramas and even custom made display electronics stolen, even -- as my family and I have had a number of things stolen at conventions in years past.

 

[kclark]

I will weigh on this a little if I may. I like Reggie was thinking that this was originally for indigent veterans as well. If it evolved, I missed it so sorry for that. As far as the cemetery goes, you have to understand the "Government" process, at least in the National Cemeteries. When a service/burial at a Federal/National Cemetery, the funeral home has to send documents to and then follow up and schedule the service with the National Cemetery scheduling office in Missouri. It is not like a local/non National Cemetery where the cemetery is called directly and given all of the pertinent information and the family shows up to go over paperwork a day or more prior to the burial. 99% of the time the "actual" National Cemetery office staff does not have any contact with the funeral home until they arrive at the cemetery nor does the cemetery office staff have any contact with the family until the family shows up minutes before the service is to start. This procedure is the government way. The funeral use to call the Scheduling Office and then had to call the actual cemetery as well but that process has been streamlined so that is hardly ever needed/required. And I can tell you, not to give excuses or point fingers, but the cemetery staff sometimes has a revolving front door and they have a lot of government crap to deal with.

Now for this:
"It has been learned that many veterans' cremains are being buried in cardboard boxes, plastic bags, coffee cans, and various other undignified containers."
You have to understand that there are some people & families that absolutely does not want any type of "permanent urn" so the "temporary container" i.e. cardboard box is used. there is a reason it is called a temporary container. Also, Coffee cans are sometimes used but most times it is "fitting" according to the family as grandpa or dad or whoever was an all day long coffee drinker. Or a mason jar as they would spend all summer every summer canning, etc.

I am in now way trying to stir the pot or anything of the sort. Just sometimes what a person may think of as "undignified", and I have seen undignified, is according to their loved ones is fitting. As far as cost of urns go, it varies from region to region and whether a funeral home is locally owned or a large conglomerate corporation that only cares about the bottom line. In my area, I would say that 90% of urns are in the $150 to $250 range along with some urns that do cost A LOT more but for the most part they are definitely less than $400.

I myself am glad for this outreach of the group and I am thankful for everyone that has been a part of it no matter how large or small the part.

Again, I am not trying to ruffle feathers I just want those of you to understand things that go on being the scenes that may or may not contribute to urns not being used at the expected rate.

 

[sawman101]

i will weigh on this a little if i may. I like reggie was thinking that this was originally for indigent veterans as well. If it evolved, i missed it so sorry for that. As far as the cemetery goes, you have to understand the "government" process, at least in the national cemeteries. When a service/burial at a federal/national cemetery, the funeral home has to send documents to and then follow up and schedule the service with the national cemetery scheduling office in missouri. It is not like a local/non national cemetery where the cemetery is called directly and given all of the pertinent information and the family shows up to go over paperwork a day or more prior to the burial. 99% of the time the "actual" national cemetery office staff does not have any contact with the funeral home until they arrive at the cemetery nor does the cemetery office staff have any contact with the family until the family shows up minutes before the service is to start. This procedure is the government way. The funeral use to call the scheduling office and then had to call the actual cemetery as well but that process has been streamlined so that is hardly ever needed/required. And i can tell you, not to give excuses or point fingers, but the cemetery staff sometimes has a revolving front door and they have a lot of government crap to deal with.

Now for this:
"it has been learned that many veterans' cremains are being buried in cardboard boxes, plastic bags, coffee cans, and various other undignified containers."
you have to understand that there are some people & families that absolutely does not want any type of "permanent urn" so the "temporary container" i.e. Cardboard box is used. There is a reason it is called a temporary container. Also, coffee cans are sometimes used but most times it is "fitting" according to the family as grandpa or dad or whoever was an all day long coffee drinker. Or a mason jar as they would spend all summer every summer canning, etc.

I am in now way trying to stir the pot or anything of the sort. Just sometimes what a person may think of as "undignified", and i have seen undignified, is according to their loved ones is fitting. As far as cost of urns go, it varies from region to region and whether a funeral home is locally owned or a large conglomerate corporation that only cares about the bottom line. In my area, i would say that 90% of urns are in the $150 to $250 range along with some urns that do cost a lot more but for the most part they are definitely less than $400.

I myself am glad for this outreach of the group and i am thankful for everyone that has been a part of it no matter how large or small the part.

Again, i am not trying to ruffle feathers i just want those of you to understand things that go on being the scenes that may or may not contribute to urns not being used at the expected rate.

kevin, thank you for your input. This helps us to better understand why it's difficult to get the urns in use. It has been our hope, that the staff might ask the family, when they come to the office, at the time of internment, if they needed an urn. The present course we are taking, is to inform the public, that by going to the cemetery office, and requesting an urn, they will be given one. Letters and flyers have been mailed to various veterans organizations throughout nc. My hope is they will pass this on to the membership, and write something about it in their newsletters. I have printed flyers here on my home printer, because the best price i could get per sheet was $.75 per piece. Now i need new ink cartridges, but because of cost, that is something else that will have to wait. Next step is to try to get publicity through our local newspapers, by having them do an article, or write up.