Anyone use that new fangled wood yet?

[jeff...]

On March 20, 2003 the treated lumber chemical suppliers and treated lumber manufacturers in cooperation with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), finalized a voluntary agreement to stop producing CCA-treated lumber for residential and consumer use by December 30, 2003.

well we are coming up on 4 years now but I have to ask why the change from good ole CCA (copper, chromium and arsenic) to new chemical cocktails like Alkaline Copper Quat, Copper Azole Type A and B and Sodium Borate?

Why not use use a wood that is naturally decay resistant and stop all the bantering back and forth? Eastern red cedar is naturally rot resistant and will out last the green wood made from 6 and 8" diameter SYP logs any day... ain't that right? plus it smells better. Instead of trying to alter some new fast growing pine - why not look at good ole eastern red cedar?

what's the problem, I don't see one except it cost a lot of money to buy that new fangled chemical cocktail lumber 8-O Someone is making a fortune, I tell you...

Thanks

 

[FredP]

On March 20, 2003 the treated lumber chemical suppliers and treated lumber manufacturers in cooperation with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), finalized a voluntary agreement to stop producing CCA-treated lumber for residential and consumer use by December 30, 2003.

well we are coming up on 4 years now but I have to ask why the change from good ole CCA (copper, chromium and arsenic) to new chemical cocktails like Alkaline Copper Quat, Copper Azole Type A and B and Sodium Borate?

Why not use use a wood that is naturally decay resistant and stop all the bantering back and forth? Eastern red cedar is naturally rot resistant and will out last the green wood made from 6 and 8" diameter SYP logs any day... ain't that right? plus it smells better. Instead of trying to alter some new fast growing pine - why not look at good ole eastern red cedar?

what's the problem, I don't see one except it cost a lot of money to buy that new fangled chemical cocktail lumber 8-O Someone is making a fortune, I tell you...

Thanks

aggree!!!!!!!!!!!!! old and new both are nasty stuff to both use and look at! yyyyyuuuukkkkkkkkk.:bconfused

 

[JackLeg]

All the things you mentioned, PLUs the WET, WET, WET wood that shrinks like crazy in the sun, warps if it ain't screwed down often, and tears out when drilling holes are the reasons we quit using PTL and went to the cypress we buy from Ivey.

I figure that anything that will kill a bug can't be good for us to to be breathing sawdust from. Hope I never have to touch another piece.

CYPRESS, CEDAR and other "friendly" woods.

 

[jeff...]

All the things you mentioned, PLUs the WET, WET, WET wood that shrinks like crazy in the sun, warps if it ain't screwed down often, and tears out when drilling holes are the reasons we quit using PTL and went to the cypress we buy from Ivey.

I figure that anything that will kill a bug can't be good for us to to be breathing sawdust from. Hope I never have to touch another piece.

CYPRESS, CEDAR and other "friendly" woods.

Yep your right I totally forgot about Cypress

 

[junquecol]

Look at what the new treated wood does to fasteners, hot dipped or not. I think we will see some failures of structures in the coming years, due to fasteners being eaten up by the preservative. A bunch of lawyers will be very happy though. Unfortunately, the builder will be the first to be sued, even though he had no choice in the matter. Had to use what the code specified.

 

[jeff...]

Look at what the new treated wood does to fasteners, hot dipped or not. I think we will see some failures of structures in the coming years, due to fasteners being eaten up by the preservative. A bunch of lawyers will be very happy though. Unfortunately, the builder will be the first to be sued, even though he had no choice in the matter. Had to use what the code specified.

Bruce I read about that on the grip rite web site, to much time on my hands hu? Nah, I have someone wanting me to build a deck for them out of this new fangled wood, so I was checking what nails to use. Anyways here an excerpt.

"SAFER" TREATED LUMBER, NEW CONCERNS
The drawback to these environmentally safer wood treatments is that they are more corrosive to unprotected metal fasteners, in fact, five times more corrosive to common steel, according to the American Wood Preservers' Association (AWPA). This includes steel fasteners.
Electrogalvanized nails were commonly used with CCA-treated lumber; however, E.G. fasteners are not suitable for use with the "new" formulations due to the higher corrosion caused by the chemical formulations. Industry experts now recommend the use of hot-dipped galvanized nails, stainless steel products, or polymer-coated fasteners (acceptable if recommended by the manufacturer) with CA-B and ACQ-treated wood.

Looks like stainless steel nails is the way to go on this new wood.



Thanks

 

[ScottM]

Looks like stainless steel nails is the way to go on this new wood.



Thanks

Gee, 25lbs of 8d stainless ring nails will only cost you about $220.00 while the same size in galvinized are what $30.00. I can just see the look on a customer's face when you tell him the nails cost almost the same as the wood.

 

[JackLeg]

Gee, 25lbs of 8d stainless ring nails will only cost you about $220.00 while the same size in galvinized are what $30.00. I can just see the look on a customer's face when you tell him the nails cost almost the same as the wood.

Kinda like "driving dimes" ain't it? Whooo!

 

[SteveHall]

So are there really woods that won't rot used at in-ground and wet/dry conditions? I'm also curious about how many swamps and cypress stands would be left if that became an approved substitute for uses of pressure-treated (against masonry, concrete, exterior decking structure, in-ground posts, etc.).

I think the problem is not that pressure-treated is so great, but that the alternatives are worse. Usually only pine and spruce are considered renewable resources in the volume that the construction industry requires. This also explains the huge increase in use of OSB, MDF, glue-lam, particle board, etc.

I guess I'd like to think that we could use better woods with less chemicals, but is it realistic given the magnitude of things these days?

 

[DIYGUY]

With shipping the SS screws that I bought from Swan last spring worked out to about .20 per screw! That was 25# at ~$300. I wanted screws instead of nails so I am not complaining, but your comment regarding the sticker shock is spot on ...

BTW - my deck used to be cypress. I was sold on it too - it lasted 7 years. I replaced it with a PT deck board that has a 30 year warranty on it. I won't be around here to find out if it made it to 30 or not, and I am not sure the mfr will be either, but the new deck sure looks as if it could go that long.

 

[DaveO]

Jeff, I 100% agree with you and I am not a fan of treated Pine new chemical or old. Don't get me started on my thoughts on the safety of CCA compared to the overly corrosive properties of ACQ and the other new treatment chemicals :eusa_naug
But it all comes down to supply and demand. ERC and Cypress are barely considered economical players in the forestry products market. In a survey of the Piedmont tree species in '02 (a representative numbers of plots were randomly sampled/inventoried and those percentages were extrapolated across the overall timber lands of the area) there were approx. 145,918 ERC (up to 15" dbh) and 936,801 Pines (species of economical value and sized up to 29+" dbh). http://www.dfr.state.nc.us/health/fia.htm

The number of ERC and Cypress could never keep up with the demand for lumber by the building industry.
In addition to availability there is the factor of growth rate and overall size. Pines grow at a much faster rate than ERC and can obtain a much larger size in their life time. Thusly they are able to be harvested more often and provide a greater volume of lumber.

So it's up to you and other small private mill owners to provide us woodworkers with the ERC and Cypress so we can build our stuff out of better materials and leave the Pines to the commercial foresters and mill operators and the building industry.....their loss, more for us :eusa_danc:eusa_danc

Dave

 

[jeff...]

Stopping and thinking about this - Setting the dime a nail expense aside, why in the world would I want to use lumber treated with chemicals that's so corrosive it eats nails? Hummm common sense kicked in and is saying du... Let's Hear It for the environmentalists and chemical engineers.

 

[JohnsonMBrandon]

The biggest problem with woods like cedar are their structural capacity. For many projects they are fine, but being a softwood.....they just don't have the strength as others. I guess it just all depends on the application. Probably the biggest players are suppliers. They drive the markets........whether its the right or wrong thing to do.

 

[Ray Martin]

Sometimes I just have to wonder why things happen. Wasn't it the environmentalists that killed CCA in favor of ACQ? The latter being so much more corrosive. Was anyone actually getting sick from the use of CCA? I'm also wondering if anyone looked at the overall impact of the change... the cost of the new chemicals and fasteners, and the new handling requirements, and the actual impact of the chemicals in question. Some of our politically correct zealot friends are a bit myopic. (I better stop complaining now.)

Ray

 

[McRabbet]

We all need to be careful that this thread doesn't get into bashing one side (the "environmentalists") versus the other ("building industry"), but please realize the the prohibition of CCA was not an environmental issue -- it is a human health issue, since the arsenates used have been found to be problematic when children were exposed to treated wood in playgrounds and the like. EPA had to ban its use under the Toxic Substances Control Act and it was phased out. And, like platinum catalytic converters on cars to reduce gasoline engine emissions, all of these compounds used to preserve wood were/are industry choices driven by the economic demands of the building industry. It is clear to me that the industry has chosen the preservative and in some regards (e.g., impact on fasteners), it doesn't appear to be the best choice.

I've used the newer ACQ treated lumber in several decks and have heeded the warnings about fasteners, too. I've found that the cost and reliability of the newer corrosion-resistant coatings on screws has been effective -- I've looked at decks I did in the past year and these screws show no signs of deterioration.

Sensible minds like ours know that there are vastly better ways to choose a naturally occurring solution, hence ERC or Cypress for exterior applications. I'd add Black Locust to that mix of choices; farmers have used BL for fence posts for hundreds of years!

 

[jeff...]

The biggest problem with woods like cedar are their structural capacity. For many projects they are fine, but being a softwood.....they just don't have the strength as others. I guess it just all depends on the application. Probably the biggest players are suppliers. They drive the markets........whether its the right or wrong thing to do.

I'm still saying Eastern Red Cedar is better than PT Southern Yellow Pine any day and I think the Janka Hardness scale is leaning in my favor.

According to the Janka, ERC scores a 900, SYP (loblolly & short leaf) is 690 and Cypress is also 690. Just noticed that poplar is known as a hardwood but only scores a Janka 540, du... it's softer than SYP which is a softwood :eusa_thin gotta love the lumber industry...

DaveO you gotta get that book of yours done so you can set the lumber industry straight.

Desite all the good characteristics of ERC, I'll just keep my thoughts to myself.

Thanks

 

[Hook]

I used some of this stuff in 4x5 (I'm guessing the dimension) timbers to frame and level a foundation/pad for a shed I had delivered. This was in 2004. I used hot dipped 12" nails to hold them together (recommended by the guy at HD). I sold the house last spring and as far as I could tell, everything about the shed was still holding together just fine.