Am I being too picky (AKA, how "flat" is flat enough)?

[jamie]

Hi all-

My shop is currently devoid of any flat workbench/assembly table type surface.

I tried to go the easy route, and ordered a door slab from lowes, to at least bootstrap the process (figuring that I could just chuck it up on a couple of sawhorses in a pinch).

I picked it up yesterday, and I did just that. I pulled out a 4' aluminum straightedge, and was very surprised to see a gap in the middle. So I grabbed my 8' cutting guide and checked with that. Corner to corner, it is a little wavy-- with about a 1/2" dip in the center.

Unsure how straight my guide was (or if sag was being introduced by the sawhorses), I flipped over the door, and it was exactly opposite (a bulge in the center).

Am I being too picky? I surely can't SAND this flat, the lauan veneer is only ~3/16" thick.

Thanks.

-jamie

 

[Mike Davis]

I would take it back.

Take your straight edge with you and see if ANY of them are flat.

You may have to build something to get a flat surface.

 

[FredP]

take it back. if this is a hollow core door forget it. it wont stay flat if you find one that is. solid core commercial doors work well for this but even those will sag over time without support and they are heavy!

 

[jamie]

take it back. if this is a hollow core door forget it. it wont stay flat if you find one that is. solid core commercial doors work well for this but even those will sag over time without support and they are heavy!

It is a solid core one that I special ordered. I called them to verify that I can return it, and they said no problem.

Took two weeks to get, too...

 

[FredP]

It is a solid core one that I special ordered. I called them to verify that I can return it, and they said no problem.

Took two weeks to get, too...

how thick? 1 3/8" or 1 3/4" you can mount some hardwood struts underneath lengthwise for support if you can get it back to flat or find one that is already flat. a couple of strait 1x4's on edge should do the trick. keep it stored flat when not in use.:icon_thum

 

[dkeller_nc]

Am I being too picky? I surely can't SAND this flat, the lauan veneer is only ~3/16" thick.

Jamie - you're right, you can't sand that flat, nor is any door going to remain flat enough to use as an assembly table if you only support it on two saw horses. If you really need/want a flat surface as a workbench, you're going to have to build/buy one especially built for the purpose.

If you just want a flat surface to assemble stuff on, then you could construct a torsion box - they're pretty quick to build, and you can even get an expanded cardboard-like material for the material that separates the two skins (generally those are 1/4" to 3/8" thick plywood, or mdf - note that if you use MDF you will need to support it well).

 

[jamie]

Jamie - you're right, you can't sand that flat, nor is any door going to remain flat enough to use as an assembly table if you only support it on two saw horses. If you really need/want a flat surface as a workbench, you're going to have to build/buy one especially built for the purpose.

If you just want a flat surface to assemble stuff on, then you could construct a torsion box - they're pretty quick to build, and you can even get an expanded cardboard-like material for the material that separates the two skins (generally those are 1/4" to 3/8" thick plywood, or mdf - note that if you use MDF you will need to support it well).

My plan was to build a bench base, and use the slab as the top, so it would have been well supported. That was until I found out that it wasn't flat (I thought that it would be).

My initial plan was in fact to make a torsion box, but then I came across quite a few threads & articles saying "as an easy, low cost alternative, try a solid core door". ugh.

I will likely make a torsion box, as originally planned, and some sort of solid wood top as an outfeed table/bench (unless I can talk my wife in to allowing me to purchase something that I have my eye on

 

[dkeller_nc]

Jaime - If you're looking for low-cost, consider building a bench in whatever configuration you desire (full-blown, outfeed support for the table saw, etc...) out of southern yellow pine. It's dirt cheap in NC, and makes a fine bench.

If you don't have the facilities to straighten/flatten boards (either handplanes or planer), another alternative is to order a "butcher block" counter-top out of maple. There's a fair number of sources out there.

Finally, Christopher Schwarz/Megan Fitzpatrick have written a few blog entries about building a new workbench out of LVL. So far, their observations seem to suggest that it'll be a fine bench, and LVL is fairly inexpensive and dimensionally stable. You can find those blog entries on the PopWoodworking/Woodworking Magazine website.

 

[jamie]

Jaime - If you're looking for low-cost, consider building a bench in whatever configuration you desire (full-blown, outfeed support for the table saw, etc...) out of southern yellow pine. It's dirt cheap in NC, and makes a fine bench.

If you don't have the facilities to straighten/flatten boards (either handplanes or planer), another alternative is to order a "butcher block" counter-top out of maple. There's a fair number of sources out there.

Finally, Christopher Schwarz/Megan Fitzpatrick have written a few blog entries about building a new workbench out of LVL. So far, their observations seem to suggest that it'll be a fine bench, and LVL is fairly inexpensive and dimensionally stable. You can find those blog entries on the PopWoodworking/Woodworking Magazine website.

I actually have looked around that blog- I see many things and realize that if I had all of the benches that I like, I wouldn't have any room for tools!

This might sound dumb, but what actually "IS" southern yellow pine? I know that it is long-leaf pine, but is that just standard construction lumber? If not, is it something they would they have at the BORGs?

 

[Mike Davis]

This might sound dumb, but what actually "IS" southern yellow pine?

I thought you were going to ask "what is LVL?" so I wouldn't have to. :rotflm:

 

[CrealBilly]

I would take it back in a heart beat, personally mind you, after my drywall ordeal I don't shop at lowes anymore. Lowes lost this customer forever... Taking stuff back, just simply ain't worth the headache, my time is worth something, then there is gas and wear and tear on my vechile. Funny how customer time for inferior product return is now commonly over looked, it didn't used to be.

I'm curious where (which country) was the door made in?

 

[CrealBilly]

Two words (Left Coast) nuff said?

 

[DaveO]

LVL Laminated Veneer Lumber or GlueLam. Engineered structural support for long spans when solid wood would need to be to bulky.

Southern Yellow Pine - A grouping of Pine normally growing in the southeast. Generally consisting of Loblolly, Longleaf, Shortleaf, and Slash Pines. Often might include other minor Pines like - Virginia, Pond, Sand, Spruce, Pitch and Table Mt. Pines.


SYP is the most common found framing/construction lumber around these parts due to its local availability. But you also might find SPF (Spruce, Pine, Fir) that comes from the west coast and is not as hard. There should be a grade and type/species stamp on the lumber to determine what you are getting.

Dave

 

[James Davis]

SYP is the most common found framing/construction lumber around these parts due to its local availability. But you also might find SPF (Spruce, Pine, Fir) that comes from the west coast and is not as hard. There should be a grade and type/species stamp on the lumber to determine what you are getting.

Dave[/QUOTE]

I must be shopping in the wrong place all I ever see is SPF. The only SYP you get now is stuff you have to ask for. You can find it at HD in larger sizes 2x8, 2x10, and 2x12 usually used for stair stringers and headers. You rarely see it in smaller framing sizes. Almost all treated lumber is SYP also.

James

 

[DaveO]

SYP is the most common found framing/construction lumber around these parts due to its local availability. But you also might find SPF (Spruce, Pine, Fir) that comes from the west coast and is not as hard. There should be a grade and type/species stamp on the lumber to determine what you are getting.

Dave

I must be shopping in the wrong place all I ever see is SPF. The only SYP you get now is stuff you have to ask for. You can find it at HD in larger sizes 2x8, 2x10, and 2x12 usually used for stair stringers and headers. You rarely see it in smaller framing sizes. Almost all treated lumber is SYP also.

James[/QUOTE]

Well I would admit I don't shop for twobafours very often. But for work bench construction you would want to get the 2 x 10s or 12s so you can rip out the potentially QS grained sections. Plus the wider twoby stock comes from more matured trees and is generally a better quality stock.

Dave

 

[Gofor]

To find SYP, I go to the local builders supply, and then can only find it in either 16' lengths (2 x 4) or 2 x 8 by 8' (the cheapest, as its only about $3.50 for a 2 x 8 which is less than double the cost of a 2x4, so I can make two 2 x 4s in a short rip with a circular saw with edge guide (which cost a lot more but justifies its use for those needing one, hint, hint:gar-Bi)

As for the bench, if the door you bought is a consistent thickness, it will flatten when put on a solid base. However, for about $60, you should be able to get either enough SYP 2 x 4s or 2 x 8s (which you will want to rip in half) to make a bench top that is 3" + thick. For this you will want the ones cut from the most outer edge of the log (flat sawn, the end grain running as close to parallel to the flat surface as possible). This will reduce the amount of "crook" (side-to-side warping). After flattening the top of these assembled on edge, you won't get a lot of warping later. (Let them set in the shop on end or stickered for a couple of weeks first). So, returning the door may be a good option. However, you will pay for the difference in time, glue, and frustration in getting the SYP assembled and flat.

If you want a super flat table for assembly, a torsion box is the best option, but the above will work for most applications. A torsion box will cost in glue, time and frustration, but not knowing what the door cost, I can't give you a price comparison on materials.

Go

PS, you want your bench top as flat as possible, so 1/2" is totally out of the limits, and would be for any door, so return should not be a problem. For a door. 1/16" is pushing it, but for a woodworking bench, less than 1/64th is what you are shooting for, and many would consider that way excessive.

 

[jamie]

Returned it, no problems.

I will go with a laminated top once I get a jointer

thanks everybody!

 

[dkeller_nc]

Returned it, no problems.

I will go with a laminated top once I get a jointer

thanks everybody!

Jamie - If you've a table saw, you don't need a jointer (at least for building a bench). You simply need one edge of the 2X12s or 2X8s you get to be straight so you can safely rip it on a table saw. You can do this a variety of ways - two that immediately come to mind are a jointer plane (a Stnaley #7 or #8), or a prtable circular saw and an edge guide.

The reason I say this is that there is little point in jointing an edge fresh from the table saw to build a lamination. You're guaranteed to be off a little when you glue up the lamination, so the jointing will go for naught. Once you have the benchtop assembled, you will either require a jointer plane if you want to do it the fastest/easiest way, or take it to someone that has a wide belt sander (the hard way, IMO - a 3" SYP 24" wide, 8' long benchtop weighs around 300 lbs.)

 

[jamie]

Jamie - If you've a table saw, you don't need a jointer (at least for building a bench). You simply need one edge of the 2X12s or 2X8s you get to be straight so you can safely rip it on a table saw. You can do this a variety of ways - two that immediately come to mind are a jointer plane (a Stnaley #7 or #8), or a prtable circular saw and an edge guide.

The reason I say this is that there is little point in jointing an edge fresh from the table saw to build a lamination. You're guaranteed to be off a little when you glue up the lamination, so the jointing will go for naught. Once you have the benchtop assembled, you will either require a jointer plane if you want to do it the fastest/easiest way, or take it to someone that has a wide belt sander (the hard way, IMO - a 3" SYP 24" wide, 8' long benchtop weighs around 300 lbs.)

I hadn't thought about the glue up issue-- that is a good point.

I am "plane challenged", but saw a few at woodcraft the other day-- any experience with the "groz" line of planes? They are not lie nielsen, that is for sure, but they looked OK to me. The only thing that I have plane-wise are a couple small block planes.

You may ask, "Why no planes?" Well, because I don't have a vise.
So, the next logical question, "Why don't you have a vise???". Because I don't have a bench!!! :rotflm:

 

[dkeller_nc]

I hadn't thought about the glue up issue-- that is a good point.

I am "plane challenged", but saw a few at woodcraft the other day-- any experience with the "groz" line of planes? They are not lie nielsen, that is for sure, but they looked OK to me. The only thing that I have plane-wise are a couple small block planes.

You may ask, "Why no planes?" Well, because I don't have a vise.
So, the next logical question, "Why don't you have a vise???". Because I don't have a bench!!! :rotflm:

Don't Do it! Groz, Anant, and the "contractor" grade of Stanelys are all uniformly junk. They're OK as an expensive paperweight, but that's all. If you're sure that you want to work wood with handtools/powertools or handtools only, you're far better off saving the cash to get a Lie-Nielsen or a Lee Valley, even if that means fewer planes for now.

If you're OK with a bit of metal work and are willing to learn how to "fettle" a plane, you can get a pre WWII Stanely, Keen Kutter, Union-Chapin or Millers Falls plane for not a lot of money, replace the blade with a Hock, spend a few hours flattening the sole and the back of the blade, and you're in business.

You can make a workbench without a vise. There's a common misconception out there that "you have to have a bench to build a bench", and it's not true. You do have to have some way to immobilize pieces of wood so that you can use a long plane (a #7, a #8, or even a #6) to straighten the edges well enough to go through a table saw, but that can be done with 2 good Bessey clamps. All it takes is some relatively immobile object that's about waist height - a deck or porch railing, for example.