Dust Collection questions

[DSWalker]

Next Shop Purchase: Dust collection

Reading up on some old posts here. Still have questions. Small hobby shop. Looking on Craigs List and there are several out there. 1 HP Jets to 2 HP Grizzlys.

Looks like a 'cyclone' system would be best? Separate circuit for the electric already ran [220v].

How much power do I need? Will a 1 HP motor be strong enough or do I need something larger? I see an older Grizzly 2 HP [220v] for about $275. They didn't list a model number to research. I have sent a message asking for more info.

What suggestions do you have for me?

 

[Phil S]

I would suggest 2 hp would be absolute min also if you can discharge directly outside you will get better air flow and never have to worry about bags filling up

 

[Jeremy Scuteri]

For a long time I had the dust collector from Harbor Freight and piped all the tools with a network of 4" flex hose. Basically everything you are not supposed to do. Before that I would connect a shop vac if I could. Even that Harbor Freight unit was quite an upgrade and did a decent job at collecting the chips. I'm sure it was crap for air quality, but that is a whole other can of worms. Since then I have upgraded to a 2.5HP Oneida cyclone. It was another big improvement.

If you can discharge outside, you also don't have to purchase a filter which is an added bonus.

 

[bowman]

There is a Jet vortex dust collector listed in this add in the classifieds section, along with many more tools. https://www.ncwoodworker.net/forums/classifieds.php?do=viewitem&itemid=2429

 

[ehpoole]

For a cyclone setup 2HP is the minimum practical system if the runs are kept reasonably short or 3HP for longer runs. In a 240V DC system figure on around 6A per HP for 1-3HP systems, so 12A for 2HP or 15-18A for 3HP.

But cyclones are, in my opinion at least, the optimal choice for our shops as waste debris (such as small blocks of wood, nails, etc.) never strike the impeller, the filter does not clog up with dust quickly since all but the finest of dust is deposited in the first stage waste drum, and they have a higher static pressure rating since the impeller can have tighter tolerances since it does not have to accept debris strikes. But Cyclones do cost more up front, though they make up for it by being more compact and convenient than converting a single stage DC into a two stage equivalent using Thien-style top hat assemblies to pre-catch larger waste (plus such conversions sacrifice valuable static pressure due to the added flow resistance incurred by the Thien-style pre-catch stage).

 

[SteveHall]

3-5 HP with a cyclone and 6" ducts directly to each machine is best... $2,000. Better add an overhead air cleaner with MERV 13+ filters with the CFM to turn the entire shop volume over 6-8 times an hour to protect your lungs.

The rest of us cobble together roll-around units and Thien separators that feel like they sort of work.

I'll never forget the first time I hooked my shop vacuum up to my table saw and filled it up in 5 minutes. It is easy to underestimate the amount of chips, sawdust, dust, and air borne particulates generated by rapidly spinning blades!

 

[golfdad]

2 Hp Grizzly is a decent machine.....paid about that much for mine knew so that price is a "LOT" to high

 

[DSWalker]

Has anyone ever tried a set up similar to this? I pulled my old [20+ YO] 2HP Craftsman shop vac out of storage yesterday. It did surprisingly well, but filled up pretty fast while using the planer. Was thinking about trying to hook something similar up if practical until I can get a better system.

Basically just looking for an extra container for the chips and dust.

 

[KenOfCary]

Has anyone ever tried a set up similar to this? I pulled my old [20+ YO] 2HP Craftsman shop vac out of storage yesterday. It did surprisingly well, but filled up pretty fast while using the planer. Was thinking about trying to hook something similar up if practical until I can get a better system.

Basically just looking for an extra container for the chips and dust.

I bought the Dust Right Vortex kit and was not very happy with it - the 4" version. I used the fittings to make a Thien Baffle and was happy with that. Then I got a 2HP Cyclone to replace the entire 1.5 horse system and am much happier with that. It uses 6" ductwork on the main runs and 4" drops to the machines. Works very well. Wish I could vent outside like Phil suggested, but lay of the land is not right for that.

The system pictured would only be good for single low volume machines one at a time. The Cyclone will handle to the entire shop if ducted correctly. The pictured system would never keep up with a planer's volume of chips. Would fill in about one or two passes of a board.

 

[Rwe2156]

David,

Not enough info to advise. Need to know machines as well as shop diagram.

 

[luckyGoose]

I went with Clearvue cyclone 1800cv, and have no regrets. I've seen it pull and hold a 10 lb weight, and as long as your machine ports are 4"+, has excellent suction. It's pricey, but well worth the investment, especially because of the filters that ship with the unit. You can also vent outside and omit the filters altogether, if that is an option. Note, this solution would work for 'stationery' machines that have 4"+ ports. For hand machines like sanders, I use a fein shop vac with a hepa filter.

 

[DSWalker]

I would suggest 2 hp would be absolute min also if you can discharge directly outside you will get better air flow and never have to worry about bags filling up

I have seen several comments about venting outside. Is tjat for all debri, or just the fine dust?

 

[Jeremy Scuteri]

I have seen several comments about venting outside. Is tjat for all debri, or just the fine dust?

Either one is an option

 

[Pop Golden]

I know of several folks around this area that have the Harbor Fright DC. The machine is well made and seems to last. It's also inexpensive. At the present I am the proud owner of the worlds worse DC. The Shopsmith DC with it's 300 CFM. I plan to upgrade to the Harbor Fright unit and build the Thien baffle. From everything I've read that seems like the most for the money. Can't do much with pipe my ceiling is too low. Researching a flexible & extendable plastic pipe. My son has the HF unit with a Dust Deputy. Works well in his shop. He opted for the Dust Deputy rather than build the Thien baffle.

Pop

 

[SteveHall]

I have seen several comments about venting outside. Is that for all debri, or just the fine dust?

Venting outside only works if you don't condition your shop. Otherwise, for every cubic foot of air you exhaust, an unconditioned cubic foot of outside air will suck in via infiltration.

You can't stop this, fluid pressures are very strong. If you could magically seal your garage perfectly, just a small exhaust would implode it.

Calculate the volume of your shop in cubic feet, length x width x height. Then look at the manufacturer's spec for the exhaust fan's CFM (cubic feet per minute). Divide the first by the second to find how many minutes it takes your dust collection fan to empty your entire shop of conditioned air.

For example, my two car garage shop is a large 5,400 cubic feet. It only takes about 8 minutes for a 650 CFM exhaust fan to empty all the heated or cooled air that my little A/C and heating unit takes 60 minutes to create!

This is why re-circulation dust collection systems are popular. Unfortunately, you have to have incredibly fine particulate filtration (HEPA) to avoid stuffing your shop full of the most harmful tiny particles that don't every settle out of the air and that your lungs can't ever expel. It takes 600-800 CFM right at the tool, which needs at least 5-8" diameter dust collection piping and minimal bend for a small machine. Cyclones separate more particles out of this air pre-filter than any other method, which prolongs filter life and explains their popularity.

All this is why I started above at the $2k cost. It's hard to build a good system even at the hobby level. Most of us just worry about chips and visible sawdust, but true dust collection takes a bit higher level technology.

 

[Jeremy Scuteri]

Venting outside only works if you don't condition your shop. Otherwise, for every cubic foot of air you exhaust, an unconditioned cubic foot of outside air will suck in via infiltration.

You can't stop this, fluid pressures are very strong. If you could magically seal your garage perfectly, just a small exhaust would implode it.

Calculate the volume of your shop in cubic feet, length x width x height. Then look at the manufacturer's spec for the exhaust fan's CFM (cubic feet per minute). Divide the first by the second to find how many minutes it takes your dust collection fan to empty your entire shop of conditioned air.

For example, my two car garage shop is a large 5,400 cubic feet. It only takes about 8 minutes for a 650 CFM exhaust fan to empty all the heated or cooled air that my little A/C and heating unit takes 60 minutes to create!

This is why re-circulation dust collection systems are popular. Unfortunately, you have to have incredibly fine particulate filtration (HEPA) to avoid stuffing your shop full of the most harmful tiny particles that don't every settle out of the air and that your lungs can't ever expel. It takes 600-800 CFM right at the tool, which needs at least 5-8" diameter dust collection piping and minimal bend for a small machine. Cyclones separate more particles out of this air pre-filter than any other method, which prolongs filter life and explains their popularity.

All this is why I started above at the $2k cost. It's hard to build a good system even at the hobby level. Most of us just worry about chips and visible sawdust, but true dust collection takes a bit higher level technology.

Several members here exhaust outside with conditioned shop spaces. This is a recurring point of contention with this topic. One of my favorite quotes from someone who has a shop so clean you can eat off the floor goes something like this:

"The only people who say that you can't exhaust your DC outside, are the ones who have never tried it."

The counter argument to all the displaced air is the very large thermal mass of the shop and it's contents. I'll be finding this out for myself before too long.

 

[Charlie]

Several members here exhaust outside with conditioned shop spaces. This is a recurring point of contention with this topic. One of my favorite quotes from someone who has a shop so clean you can eat off the floor goes something like this:

"The only people who say that you can't exhaust your DC outside, are the ones who have never tried it."

The counter argument to all the displaced air is the very large thermal mass of the shop and it's contents. I'll be finding this out for myself before too long.

I fully agree. I've been exhausting "everything" outside for almost 30 years. I wouldn't have it any other way. If I was located where temperatures get into sub zero, I might be concerned.

 

[SteveHall]

This is a recurring point of contention with this topic.

I'm guessing along the scale:

1. Woodworkers
2. Woodworkers who prefer broom clean
3. Woodworkers who prefer visually clean
4. Woodworkers with respiratory concerns

"The only people who say that you can't exhaust your DC outside, are the ones who have never tried it."

I didn't start doing calculations and reading more about the topic until trying it myself.

There are a lot of variables. A "very large thermal mass of the shop" implies insulated space and large cooling/heating equipment 24/7. That's a big cost, easily offset by a cyclone, filtration, and decent ductwork. For a weekend warrior, the mass won't get to working temperature. Or if the exhaust is only 250 CFM and is turned on and off frequently only for a minute at a time, it won't pull in much outside air. But I burned a DC motor trying that one!

 

[gmakra]

Dust collection is one of my pet peeves since there is so much speculation and misinformation out there.
I have been in the HVAC business for 40 years I ran 80 pharmaceutical clean rooms so I think I might have a little insight.

One area that just wrong is the subject of air cleaners why are they mounted high?
Dust settles if you want to clean the air set it on the floor and collect all the dust that settles.
Having it high does almost nothing.

HP and performance is just speculation with out CFM readings!
Its like trying to do Ohms Laws with one factor!

Dust Collection is a money maker now and for the next few years.
A Harbor Frieght is probably just as go as any of them.

Next is the Dust Collectors and Micron ratings! A pharmaceutical clean room is supposed to be clean to 5 microns, that is difficult since skin flora, hair and air from any nose will ruin that cleanliness.

So getting really excited about buying a 1 micron rated dust collector is absurd since you will never get your work area any cleaner than the outside air which by the way can be very dirty.
But you will spend a fortune on air filters.

Forget about buying fancy duct, regular old air conditioning duct has been used for years by Torit who by the way wrote the book on dust collection.

The simple fact is dust collection is just a fancy vacuum cleaner.

Use some common sense running your dust work, if you have 6 inch ports run your duct in 6 inch and reduce close to your collection point.
Keep your runs as straight as possible and dont worry about having an air tight system.

 

[Willemjm]

I have been using this http://www.grizzly.com/products/2HP...8ZP?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com for many, many years in my shop and I really cannot complain. It has more than enough suction for all my machines. Cons is that it is a bit noisy inside the shop and if I use my drum sander it eventually clogs up the canister filter. I have to then remove the filter and clean the inside with a shop-vac. It captures all the sanding dust from my lathe, has the band-saw whistling and is more than my 15" planer needs at a full wide 1/8 cut by a long shot.

I used 6" overhead galvanized ducting, final drops to machines all 4" with a blast gate at each machine.