Why I bought a rip-off copy

[tvrgeek]

I support innovation. I support the small guys making good tools. I have a few L-N, Veritas, Florip, Narlex, etc. I basically avoid import rip-offs. But there is a limit.

Several companies seem to think they are so special, they can charge insane prices. Not just high. Not just a little more craftsmanship. Not that real extra cost of hand fit and finish. It is not just cost of domestic manufacturing. For instance, there is a company making similar to "red" tools in "blue" for half. US made. Same quality. I am not talking about things like the counterfeit Mitutoyo calipers. " On sale for only $69". Just a fake $12 caliper where the real one is $200.

Well, Bridge City, a company I have bought from in the past, is one such gone over the top. They have a nifty multi-marking gauge for $150. But I just got a copy for $19. ( free delivery) Copy, not counterfeit. Too big a gap. Difference? The slide edge needs to be honed smooth, but otherwise excellent. They could have done that for only a couple more bucks. If the B-C was $40, or even 50, I would have gone there. Not $150. Not 8 times the price. Closer to 10 if you add shipping.

I do wish their try and miter squares were still the beautiful rosewood and brass how John started. They were expensive, but not insane and were lifetime tools. Now just cold aluminum and steel. No reason to buy them over plain old machinist squares. They lost that "grin when you pick it up" factor.

Some irony that B-C is owned by Harvey, a big Chinese OEM who makes slightly better for less money than the brand names they OEM to. A curious market.

 

[Warped Woodwerks]

I bought all 3 different sizes BC squares. Total junk. No QC and customer support was laughable. I tossed all of them in the trash, over a year ago, and still kick myself for buying into the YT marketing hype.

Never again... Nothing BC!

 

[Mike Davis]

The few Bridge City tools I have were bought second hand for about what they are worth, yeah close to 1/3 retail.

 

[chris_goris]

Im still trying to wrap my head around why you guys seem to need all these machinist tools in woodworking. Sure, I have one, old starrett 12" machinist square that I use. I use it mainly for depth settings though, I have no idea (nor have I ever had a need to know just how square it really is. The error at 12" by the foot width ( maybe 3"?) in wood working is laughable. Maybe Im a hack and have been building cabinets wrong all these years, but a simple, corner to corner measurement checks square no matter the size. I do however spend the money on quality stationary tools. These can be and have been setup ONE time with zero drift from setup in the time ive owned them.

 

[tvrgeek]

I keep a certified Kinex machinist square in the case as a reference. With it I tuned my traditional wood/brass trys and verified my cheap combination squares were not ( so bought PEC and SPI which are) , verified my little Japanese combo is dead on, and even tuned a couple of cheap speed squares. I use machinist tools to align my power tools ( and my Lyon) . A pinch rod will measure a cabinet just fine. Actually far better than measuring with a rule or measuring the corners. Don't bother with precision on my miter saw, a Ridgid and it is so flexible it's never correct anyway. Maybe if I bought a Festool. There are other things that are very square one can use as a reference. Vinyl floor tiles for example. Drafting squares etc.

Point is, a really accurate little machinist square is pretty cheap. A 6 inch Kinex is about $22 for a reference. No need for boutique mult-Franklin tools. I set a Bates ruler ( $3) against a "boutique" ( $130) and with a magnifying glass, could not see a difference.

Precision matters for picture frames and Kimiko. It matters for small boxes you will see up close.

Rory, I have heard that story a few times recently. Bummer. When John started, they were very good. Their squares are adjustable though so maybe you tossed potentially good tools. For the price they should have come perfect! Sad about support as Harvey has had excellent CS. I still have a BC sliding bevel. Old wood/brass one. More accurate than $9 Swanson? No, but nice to use and it was not stupid priced back then.

 

[chris_goris]

I use machinist tools to align my power tools ( and my Lyon) . A pinch rod will measure a cabinet just fine. Actually far better than measuring with a rule or measuring the corners.

Not sure what a pinch rod is or Lyon but what are you building that you require such accuracy? And how often do you need to "align" powertools?

 

[Westpacx3]

I support innovation. I support the small guys making good tools. I have a few L-N, Veritas, Florip, Narlex, etc. I basically avoid import rip-offs. But there is a limit.

Several companies seem to think they are so special, they can charge insane prices. Not just high. Not just a little more craftsmanship. Not that real extra cost of hand fit and finish. It is not just cost of domestic manufacturing. For instance, there is a company making similar to "red" tools in "blue" for half. US made. Same quality. I am not talking about things like the counterfeit Mitutoyo calipers. " On sale for only $69". Just a fake $12 caliper where the real one is $200.

Well, Bridge City, a company I have bought from in the past, is one such gone over the top. They have a nifty multi-marking gauge for $150. But I just got a copy for $19. ( free delivery) Copy, not counterfeit. Too big a gap. Difference? The slide edge needs to be honed smooth, but otherwise excellent. They could have done that for only a couple more bucks. If the B-C was $40, or even 50, I would have gone there. Not $150. Not 8 times the price. Closer to 10 if you add shipping.

I do wish their try and miter squares were still the beautiful rosewood and brass how John started. They were expensive, but not insane and were lifetime tools. Now just cold aluminum and steel. No reason to buy them over plain old machinist squares. They lost that "grin when you pick it up" factor.

Some irony that B-C is owned by Harvey, a big Chinese OEM who makes slightly better for less money than the brand names they OEM to. A curious market.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a multi-marking gauge?

Who is the blue company?

I have a Groz set of 4 machine squares for set ups, PEC 6 inch ruler in metric and imperial and an imaging 6 inch tri square. All check great against a freinds Starrett.

I would like a small 4" or so speed square for my small projects. They seem usfull but I'm also trying not to go over board like when I started fly fishing and bought too many gadgets.

 

[Rwe2156]

A lot of china is cheap bc of slave labor. If you want to support that go ahead.

Bridge city are collector tools.

 

[mdbuntyn]

This is matter of budget and ethics, both of which are personal.

There's no need to justify how you spend your money to anyone who won't be impacted by your purchasing decisions, particularly on a public forum.

Lets keep it civil and apolitical.

 

[tvrgeek]

Not sure what a pinch rod is or Lyon but what are you building that you require such accuracy? And how often do you need to "align" powertools?

I align power tools when new and I check them when I do maintenance.

Like I said, picture frames, small boxes, and Kimiko require very high precision. Numbers don't matter much, sameness and precise angles do.

Day in and day out, I use an old wood/brass try or my 4 inch PEC sliding T. Most of my machine setup is with an old office stainless ruler. I put a digital gauge on my table saw but never use it. Guess I should take it off and make a multi-stop rail.

A pinch rod is the traditional tool for measuring diagonals. It tells you if it is the same. Who cares what the number is.

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You of course can buy nice bronze fittings.

A Lyon trimmer is a fancy shooting board. Very precise but limited in the smallest shaving it can make. I can plane a thou, but the trimmer needs a good 50 to take a bite. It relies on the shaving to keep the blade against the way. Very good about edge trailing edge tear-out.

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A shooting board set up for 90 and one for 45 is a better option in my experience, but I have one so I use it. Larger foot powered versions used to be SOP in picture frame shops. Now they use automated saws. Lion/Lyon varies. I think Lyon was an original brand.

Multi Tools MT-1/ MT-2. I see the price just dropped. There is actually a design fault in the clone making it not able to transfer end to face like a simple saddle gauge or the BC original To give the clone some credit, they added some markings on the slide for quick angle setting that were right on. The design fault of the clone multi-marking tool was just someone copying/stealing a design and never using one so the strait edge of the hinge was not noticed. Doing it correctly would not have cost anything. They just did not understand how it works.

One can search for similar tools to Woodpeckers and Incra. Red, blue, black. Domestic and import. Some close copies, some not, some even more clever. All I have tired have been highly accurate for the one-piece machined tools. Actually, my Incra mini-T is prone to be off square.

Cheap labor is not the only reason some imported tools are less expensive and progressivly not as much. Some are just cheap, lower precision etc, but they CAN make a tool as well an anyone if you are wiling to pay for the fit and finish. No environmental controls, subsidized energy, and tax games are probably bigger cost factors and they are not isolated to China. An automated machine has pretty low labor, so that is not the excuse it once was. Note that even Starrett has some tools build in Asia. India is up and coming as well as the Philippines. Seeing more stuff from Eastern Europe. Now the current shipping challenges with the Panama canal going dry and wars in the Middle east may change some of the import dynamics raising the cost of trade. More to Europe than N.A possibly. The supply line issues from the past 3 or so years have caused a lot of in-sourcing. Much of it coming here to N.C!

I do not want to be mistaken. It is stolen intellectual property I try to avoid. Not the country of origin. Not all of it comes from China and much of what they build is unique or expired rights. Stolen IP is not political, it is an legal issue and it too is not relegated to one source. The legal costs of enforcing a patent means only huge companies can do so. But when the originator is being just plane insane with pricing for no benefit, that is where I may try a copy. BC used to be good working tools. Guess not any more.

 

[junquecol]

A lot of china is cheap bc of slave labor. If you want to support that go ahead.

Bridge city are collector tools.

Remember Beanie Babies? Same league, along with Forrest blades, IMHO.

 

[tvrgeek]

Now this is really funny:
Banggood , the Chinese version of Amazon where a lot of the world buys their tools, being ripped off buy "Boomgood" branded on Amazon.

Stanley #1, collectors item. Stanley #4, goes to work every day.

Now a Wood River 5 1/2, $270. Made in China but "supervised" to maintain quality. Lie Neilson $425, a lot for better fit and finish. They do put in the hand work. Probably fair prices as the W-R will take a couple hours to tweak to perfection. So, two copies, slightly improved of Bedrocks. Prices reflect cost, not the ten times arrogance.

 

[old and in the way]

I would say that for anything there is a point of diminishing returns for a brand name, especially if the price is no longer consistent with quality. These days, there are many choices, with varying degress of price and quality, and you have to pick what works best for you. Unless you are measuring angstroms, many available measuring tools will suffice for both machining and woodworking.

Just as Cadillacs are really no longer "Cadillacs", as they were when I was a child (50's/60's), many brand names have felt the need to compete on a price basis in order to stay in business, and so their quality is not what it once was.

Not picking on Cadillac, just using it as a metaphor for those close to my age.
Tone

 

[Warped Woodwerks]

Rory, I have heard that story a few times recently. Bummer. When John started, they were very good. Their squares are adjustable though so maybe you tossed potentially good tools. For the price they should have come perfect! Sad about support as Harvey has had excellent CS. I still have a BC sliding bevel. Old wood/brass one. More accurate than $9 Swanson? No, but nice to use and it was not stupid priced back then.

Yes, I tried adjusting them, but that didn't work too well. They always seemed to be a hair off. With 1 of them, I loosened the screws all of the way and the SS blade didn't budge an inch. Since I couldn't adjust that one, and BC customer support was of no use, that one was tossed 1st.

Right out of the box, none seemed to be 90 degrees. Needless to say, I was disappointed.

Like you, I ended up buying some Kinex DIN 875/00 (knife edge) for referencing, 875/0 for more of the "day-to-day" use, & TayTools 875/1 for daily stuff.

After my BC experience, I'm hoping I've learned my lesson with buying those eye candy tools.