Used Cabinet Saws

[Ed Fasano]

Just wondering...
There’s a lot of chatter about making Saw Stop’s Active Injury Mitigation technology mandatory on all table saws. If this becomes reality, I’m wondering if and to what degree the existing used cabinet saw market might be affected. Will many thousands of machines like the 3hp Powermatic PM 66, PM 2000 or Delta’s Unisaw be rendered worthless (i.e. unsalable) or, because of controls on what can be sold new, will well-made pre-owned cabinet saws suddenly become even more valuable?

 

[jlwest]

I doubt it will be retroactive. Good marketing by SawStop. In my opinion SawStop provides a false sense of security at the cost of proper safe technique.

 

[demondeacon]

Just wondering...
There’s a lot of chatter about making Saw Stop’s Active Injury Mitigation technology mandatory on all table saws. If this becomes reality, I’m wondering if and to what degree the existing used cabinet saw market might be affected. Will many thousands of machines like the 3hp Powermatic PM 66, PM 2000 or Delta’s Unisaw be rendered worthless (i.e. unsalable) or, because of controls on what can be sold new, will well-made pre-owned cabinet saws suddenly become even more valuable?

The bottom will fall out of the resale values I would expect.

 

[HMH]

Or a good opportunities to pickup high quality AND cheap dedicated dado saw if you've got the space!

 

[Mike Davis]

When the technology gets to the point that it doesn't ruin the saw blade
and destroy a $100+ part of the saw then I may buy into it.
Until then I will keep and continue to use my 1995 Delta contractor saw.

 

[old and in the way]

It might well become like seat belts; after 1968 cars were required to have them, but cars that did not have them were not required to be retrofitted. This has not stopped the sale or reduced the value of pre-1968 cars in the least, other than the lack of affordability, given the high prices for what have become classic cars.

I am generally skeptical of advances that reduce a requirement to pay attention to what you are doing, as I feel that you can be suckered in to a level of complacency by allowing the technology to take over what should be one's own sense of caution around machinery. And should the technology fail, you are more susceptible to harm because of that reduced sense of caution, which you have allowed the technology to monitor for you. Lane changing monitoring by your vehicle, instead of yourself, comes to mind.

I designed and fabricated custom cabinetry, furniture, and architectural millwork, professionally for 45 years, and I still have all my fingers. While I attribute this mostly to dumb luck, any mishap that happened to me would not have been ameliorated by the Saw Stop technology.

Agreed, good marketing by Saw Stop. Perhaps having hammer heads that recognize fingers and stop the hammer dead in its tracks would be a better use of the technology.

Old and in the way, as my screen name says.
Tone

 

[Tarhead]

I am generally skeptical of advances that reduce a requirement to pay attention to what you are doing, as I feel that you can be suckered in to a level of complacency by allowing the technology to take over what should be one's own sense of caution around machinery.

The research that I've seen says that most hand/fingers vs spinning sawblade incidents are caused by kickbacks that pull the operator's hand/fingers into the blade. This happens faster than an alert operator can react to it. Watch this video and see Tom Hintz cause a kickback and notice where his hand ends up relative to the blade. He was very lucky:

 

[old and in the way]

The research that I've seen says that most hand/fingers vs spinning sawblade incidents are caused by kickbacks that pull the operator's hand/fingers into the blade. This happens faster than an alert operator can react to it. Watch this video and see Tom Hintz cause a kickback and notice where his hand ends up relative to the blade. He was very lucky:

Mark:

Nice bit of fear-mongering. I agree that kickbacks are serious, but most can be prevented, including (especially) the one in the video. To do this intentionally seems more like a "hold my beer" moment than anything involving caution and good sense.

I can only imagine if he did cut off his finger. He is in the hospital, and the micro-surgeon is attempting to reattach his finger. The surgeon asks what happened, and the man replies "I had a kickback on my table saw." The surgeon, being an amateur woodworker himself, nods and says "These things happen." Then the man adds "I did this intentionally while making a video on table saw safety". Perhaps the surgeons assessment of the mans intellect drops about 50 IQ points.

There is no substitute for being cautious, understanding proper tool procedure, and knowing where your fingers and material are relative to the cutters. Accidents happen, that is the nature of the business. Perhaps with a Saw Stop, you would still be picking oak splinters out of your remaining teeth with a similar kickback, even if it didn't cut your finger off.

Just sayin'.
Tone

 

[Tarhead]

Mark:

Nice bit of fear-mongering. I agree that kickbacks are serious, but most can be prevented, including (especially) the one in the video. To do this intentionally seems more like a "hold my beer" moment than anything involving caution and good sense.

I can only imagine if he did cut off his finger. He is in the hospital, and the micro-surgeon is attempting to reattach his finger. The surgeon asks what happened, and the man replies "I had a kickback on my table saw." The surgeon, being an amateur woodworker himself, nods and says "These things happen." Then the man adds "I did this intentionally while making a video on table saw safety". Perhaps the surgeons assessment of the mans intellect drops about 50 IQ points.

There is no substitute for being cautious, understanding proper tool procedure, and knowing where your fingers and material are relative to the cutters. Accidents happen, that is the nature of the business. Perhaps with a Saw Stop, you would still be picking oak splinters out of your remaining teeth with a similar kickback, even if it didn't cut your finger off.

Just sayin'.
Tone

I was countering your generalization that inattentive operators are the cause of injuries as an objection to using SS's tech. Even when he knew what was going to happen and taking precautions to prevent injury, the board and the push block pulled his hand close to the blade before he could react. I've experienced one kickback in 40+ years of woodworking. It happened when trying to miter rip a work-hardened board that pinched the blade without a splitter/riving knife (1980 Unisaw). When I sensed the saw struggling with the cut I started backing out and it caught a tooth. Like most of us with older saws the splitter was not on the saw and would have prevented this. I found the Sharkguard splitter that is easy and quick to mount/remove for dado cuts and have never looked back.

 

[Wiley's Woodworks]

When the technology gets to the point that it doesn't ruin the saw blade
and destroy a $100+ part of the saw then I may buy into it.
Until then I will keep and continue to use my 1995 Delta contractor saw.

I'm with Mike in his logic. $90 for a new SS cartridge and $60-$180 for a new blade. That adds up. I've heard too many stories about false triggers of the brake over moisture in the wood and other causes. I'm sticking with my Powermatic 66 5hp

Table saws are the #1 source of workshop accidents because of their frequency of use, not because of inherent danger. Making sure your blade hasn't gotten dull goes a long way. Pay attention to what you're doing.

 

[Mike Davis]

The only shop tool I have ever been hurt by is a router and that happened twice.
One in a table and one freehand.

 

[Kirk S]

The table saw I use today is just as dangerous as the table saw I used when I was younger, the thing that has changed is me, as much as I try, my dexterity and vision are not the same as when I was younger. Having a table saw with a "seat belt" is attractive to me.

 

[Wilsoncb]

There is no way they would mandate updating older saws. I believe they would also need to allow existing new inventory to be depleted. I believe the existing manufacturers will lobby to extend this for at least 5 years to enable them to also develop new saws.

Low cost saws will initially be more expensive. However, as more companies figure out how to incorporate the flesh sensing touch switches (which are similar to the touch lamp switches) along with the retractable blade trunions, the price will go down.

Used saws without the technology will initially increase in demand and price as people look for an alternative to the new saw higher prices.

 

[Martin Roper]

I've been hurt twice woodworking and both times it was my fault, not the tool.

One was just with an electric drill. I was drilling a large hole freehand on a piece of pressure-treated deck board on my back deck. The bit caught, tore the piece out of my left hand, and swung it around where it hit my thigh raising quite a welt. I thought it had broken the skin, but it was just a nasty contusion. The concerning part was its proximity to my, well, man bits.

Another time I was cutting a piece of plywood about 2 feet square on the table saw. With the blade still running, I reached over it to take the piece off my outfeed roller and dropped it right onto the whirling blade. It flung the piece like a square frisbee right at my midsection. Luckily it hit on a flat edge, not a point. Regardless, it felt like a gut punch from Joe Frazier.

I have a dedicated outfeed table now and I don't reach over the blade to retrieve cutoffs.

 

[Melinapex]

I find I use my bandsaw way more than I ever thought I would. For any heavy cuts now I use that and stick to making light cuts on the table saw. Often I will just make the cut on the bandsaw and finish it with a hand plane. So I don’t use the tablesaw as much anymore, and doubt I would spend the kind of $$ a sawstop costs…. Not saying I won’t someday, but I doubt it right now…..

 

[junquecol]

I find I use my bandsaw way more than I ever thought I would. For any heavy cuts now I use that and stick to making light cuts on the table saw. Often I will just make the cut on the bandsaw and finish it with a hand plane. So I don’t use the tablesaw as much anymore, and doubt I would spend the kind of $$ a sawstop costs…. Not saying I won’t someday, but I doubt it right now…..

As for safety of band saw, bundle about four 3/8" dowels together. With band saw running, swing them into blade. 3/8" dowels are about the size of your fingers.

 

[Ed Fasano]

There is no way they would mandate updating older saws. I believe they would also need to allow existing new inventory to be depleted. I believe the existing manufacturers will lobby to extend this for at least 5 years to enable them to also develop new saws.

Low cost saws will initially be more expensive. However, as more companies figure out how to incorporate the flesh sensing touch switches (which are similar to the touch lamp switches) along with the retractable blade trunions, the price will go down.

Used saws without the technology will initially increase in demand and price as people look for an alternative to the new saw higher prices.

I too have a sense that value of good used cabinet saws will rise if mandated "safe" saws become a reality. A well cared for 3hp cabinet saw that once sold new for between $1,400 around $1,800 may become worth more used that what it cost new.

 

[tvrgeek]

Expo-facto. They are not going to ban you selling an older saw. Retrofitting is impossible so anyone who suggests that needs to understand how a saw works. Only sale of new would be impacted. I expect good older saws to hold their value.

I would like to see data on saw injury based on hours used and size of the saw. Bench-top, job-site, contractor, and cabinet. I have only seen "table saw" totals. I suspect buy use, far more injuries with the smaller saws used on job sites as who knows the training and skill of the operator, condition of the saw, and sufficient material handling. Shop saws are more likely to have guards/dust collection in place, power feeds, proper infeed and outfeed space etc.

Of course a band saw can cut. That's what butcher shops use! But they don't kick back and don't pull your hand into it. Many times safer.

Mark, I am right there with you.

 

[Rwe2156]

I’m always amazed at these types of comments:

”I’ve never been injured”. “I’ve only had two close calls”

”A $70 blade and a $120 cartridge? - that’s a deal breaker. But, I would still all ten - naw, still a deal breaker.”

”I’ve got a SawStop now I can disregard safe practices”

”If you pay attention and follow the rules you don’t need it.”

False triggers and bent arbors don’t even register in the decision making process.

I honestly think it comes fri either a bias against SawStop for a perceived lack of public service by not giving it away, or self confidence, or that somehow the safety feature makes you a wimp?

The table saw I use today is just as dangerous as the table saw I used when I was younger, the thing that has changed is me, as much as I try, my dexterity and vision are not the same as when I was younger. Having a table saw with a "seat belt" is attractive to me.

This ^^ is the right attitude, especially those of us with 70 or 80 year old brains. “Pay attention to what you’re doing”. That’s the issue!!

 

[tvrgeek]

Bob, I would slightly disagree. My close calls were using a saw WITH the guard and rear mounted splitter in place. Once, the thin work went UNDER the splitter and the other before it got to it. That is why I harp on riving knives. But yes, no matter how "safe" features are, a saw is a dangerous bit of kit and you need to pay attention all the time. An idiot will always find a way to hurt themselves and then sue someone else.

I chose not to buy a SawStop as about the only thing I use the saw for is long rips and usually have the overarm and feather boards in place. I use the band saw or miter saw ( love the million dollar stick) mostly. My Harvey has a proper riving knife and I have not had an issue.

SawStops DO have false triggers and do have occasional non-destructive shut downs. Sometimes it is not turning the sensor off for things like damp pressure treated lumber. Ironic that this is most likely to pinch and kick! I could live with that if it was my primary tool. I am rather fond of my fingers. I worried about obsolesce of the electronics as I expect my saw to be a lifetime tool. No electronics are lifetime.

If the you-tubers would demonstrate safe practices, that may help. Gad do I see some stupid stuff out there. But You-Tube only censors proper use of words that can be use offencivelly in another context. Not dangerous p[practices.