SawStop Legislation
- Thread starter Pete-G
- Start date
I want to see the file history of the 9,724,840 patent to determine when is expires. For those that d not know, patents last 20 years from the date the application for the patent is filed. According to the '840 patent a provisional application was March 13, 2001. Therefore unless there was a term extension for the patent is expired March 13, 2021. An extension could be granted if there were delays during the prosecution of the patent application that were caused by the US patent and Trademark Office. Delays due to the applicant are cause for an extension.
I would like to just take a step back from what could be interpreted as worse case scenario before we know all the facts. We don’t know at this time the extent of the regulation. We also don’t know the what that regulation might end up costing. Mass production and competition have a way of lowering costs. We really don’t know if Sawstop has been gouging consumers, or if the added technology is why they cost more. I suspect the SS cost is a combination of better materials and design as well as their specific manufacturing costs. It’s not just the technology that adds cost. There are additional reinforcements and mechanisms required for their system.
Is it a bad thing that a $300 plastic frame saw will go by the wayside? If you need a light portable saw, is there anything a track saw can’t do? (Yes, I understand the cheapest track saw will cost $500.) But, the answer is not much and the track saw will likely do a better job on most tasks. I’m just saying, it’s not the end of the world, and let’s see how it all goes before we panic…and if it’s a big concern write your Senator or Congressperson.
Is it a bad thing that a $300 plastic frame saw will go by the wayside? If you need a light portable saw, is there anything a track saw can’t do? (Yes, I understand the cheapest track saw will cost $500.) But, the answer is not much and the track saw will likely do a better job on most tasks. I’m just saying, it’s not the end of the world, and let’s see how it all goes before we panic…and if it’s a big concern write your Senator or Congressperson.
I researched the patent. It turns out that the applicants appealed a rejection of their application to the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (the highest court fr patent appeals) and won. It took a long time and therefore the term of the patent was extend 4,044 days (about 11 years). Mystery solved and yes I am a nerd.
Easily rip, trim, and crosscut narrow stock.
I used a track saw to make the drawers in my last project.
Drawer Unit for Garage Shelves
Consistent motivation has been hard to come by, but I did get a long-needed project completed over the weekend. This is going to sit on the metal shelf in the background, and allow me to finally start the organizing that I’ve been talking about. The carcass, drawer fronts, and pulls are BORG...
I have no desire to own a table saw, but even a low-end jobsite saw would have been a huge help.
Just my opinion but this is old news to a point, SawStop announced in early March (public announcement) that the skin sense technology will be available to anyone if the regulation passes. Several YouTuber's have been talking about this and spreading false rumors sounding the alarm over the past several months. It always amazes me how some YouTubers start the rumor mill before anything is even announced or rules actually change. If you spend any time reading what the consumer product people are having hearings on you would be amazed to find hundreds of products.
Will cheap saws disappear maybe but Wenn announced a few weeks back that the new technology would result in 100 to 200 dollar increase not the 500 plus YouTuber's keep spuewing about.
One point Stubby is missed informed on is the Craftsman radial arm saw, used saws are available.
I have seen several on Craigs list in just the past 30 days. I keep an eye on radial arm saws cause I happen to like them and have purchased several over the past 4 years, refurbished and resold. Still use one for many projects.
Will cheap saws disappear maybe but Wenn announced a few weeks back that the new technology would result in 100 to 200 dollar increase not the 500 plus YouTuber's keep spuewing about.
One point Stubby is missed informed on is the Craftsman radial arm saw, used saws are available.
I have seen several on Craigs list in just the past 30 days. I keep an eye on radial arm saws cause I happen to like them and have purchased several over the past 4 years, refurbished and resold. Still use one for many projects.
Rick, yes, used RAS are out there. Not everyone took Sears up on the $100. I sold mine for more than that. This recall was a Sears decision to minimize litigation risk, not a Government getting into everyone's business.
Old news as this subject has been around. New news in SS offering the critical patent if it becomes a regulation. New news is the committee is considering it now and it could take effect in a year or so.
I agree that manufactures will find a way to implement it at a more reasonable cost. Probably by not beefing up the machine so if it triggers, not just the blade may be damaged but that is still a lot better than the cost of an emergency room visit. Now, IMHO, those $300 benchtop saws scared the daylights out of me and I would not be sad to see them go away. Job site size are a little better and the cost increase will not be such a high percentage. We have seen the market willing to buy the PCS at it's increased price. I wonder what the ratio is for 3 HP cabinet saws. I chose otherwise not for price but a variety of other details.
Old news as this subject has been around. New news in SS offering the critical patent if it becomes a regulation. New news is the committee is considering it now and it could take effect in a year or so.
I agree that manufactures will find a way to implement it at a more reasonable cost. Probably by not beefing up the machine so if it triggers, not just the blade may be damaged but that is still a lot better than the cost of an emergency room visit. Now, IMHO, those $300 benchtop saws scared the daylights out of me and I would not be sad to see them go away. Job site size are a little better and the cost increase will not be such a high percentage. We have seen the market willing to buy the PCS at it's increased price. I wonder what the ratio is for 3 HP cabinet saws. I chose otherwise not for price but a variety of other details.
Good points Scott.
I agree with the point that it won't be a catastrophic event if SawStop finally gets their way and their technology gets mandated. There is a question if the consumers product safety commission has the authority so even if they pass something it may be challenged. But if it happens, it happens. Will raise cost of table saws, probably eliminate the inexpensive ones but it is highly likely they will still be around.
I do not trust SawStop even a little bit about their offer of the use of the one patent. I think they either know they will loose it soon or that it won't really help other manufacturers that much. I think they make a nice saw, I have a PCS, but their history is not such that I think they are trust worthy whenever legislation is being discussed.
I also agree with the viewpoint that a track saw is not a complete replacement for a table saw. I am glad to have both and there are many things which are easy on a table saw that would be quite difficult with a track saw. But track saw prices have come down a lot. You can have a setup for less than $300 pretty easily. Like an Evolution saw (I got one for our volunteer group at church, it is OK) and 110 inches of track in two pieces from Wen. The saw is about $150 and the track is about $75. There are other options. I'm happy to have my DeWalt and it or the Makita is significantly more than this but still much less than a Festool setup.
I do not trust SawStop even a little bit about their offer of the use of the one patent. I think they either know they will loose it soon or that it won't really help other manufacturers that much. I think they make a nice saw, I have a PCS, but their history is not such that I think they are trust worthy whenever legislation is being discussed.
I also agree with the viewpoint that a track saw is not a complete replacement for a table saw. I am glad to have both and there are many things which are easy on a table saw that would be quite difficult with a track saw. But track saw prices have come down a lot. You can have a setup for less than $300 pretty easily. Like an Evolution saw (I got one for our volunteer group at church, it is OK) and 110 inches of track in two pieces from Wen. The saw is about $150 and the track is about $75. There are other options. I'm happy to have my DeWalt and it or the Makita is significantly more than this but still much less than a Festool setup.
I would like to clarify my statement: “If you need a light portable saw, is there anything a track saw can’t do?”. What I mean is, if all you can afford is a light portable table saw, you may be better off with a track saw. A light portable table saw is a compromise, you don’t buy one thinking it has the same capabilities of a full size table saw. You get one either because that is all you can afford, or you need portability. In the case the $300 light table saw becomes $500 because it has to have SS technology, a track saw may be the better alternative. Neither option will be able to do some of the things you can do with a full size table saw.
A few examples:
- Rip cutting 3” x 3” material. “I’ve ripped 3” material on my plastic HF saw!” Good for you Uncle Lefty.
- Anything that requires a dado blade. I’m sure there are some light table saws that can take a dado blade and Uncle Lefty has done it…but I wouldn’t do it. Besides, if you can only afford a $300 saw, you probably can’t afford a $100 dado set…or you bought a dull used set.
I’m sure there are many others. We’ve probably all had to get buy cheap at some point in time. Usually that point is when we also have the least amount of experience. My guess is the highest percent of accidents happen with less experienced users on cheap saws. So if the worse case scenario causes cheap saws to go away, is it really a bad thing? There‘s always the Roy Underhill way.
A few examples:
- Rip cutting 3” x 3” material. “I’ve ripped 3” material on my plastic HF saw!” Good for you Uncle Lefty.
- Anything that requires a dado blade. I’m sure there are some light table saws that can take a dado blade and Uncle Lefty has done it…but I wouldn’t do it. Besides, if you can only afford a $300 saw, you probably can’t afford a $100 dado set…or you bought a dull used set.
I’m sure there are many others. We’ve probably all had to get buy cheap at some point in time. Usually that point is when we also have the least amount of experience. My guess is the highest percent of accidents happen with less experienced users on cheap saws. So if the worse case scenario causes cheap saws to go away, is it really a bad thing? There‘s always the Roy Underhill way.
Can a track saw safely rip narrow pieces of wood such as fillers when installing cabinets?
You can either use stock of the same thickness to support the track while making the cut, build a dedicated narrow rip fixture, or buy something like the Kreg Rip Guides (which is what I did).
Can a benchtop table saw without a blade guard safely do the same?
No. A: no guard is dangerous. B: Benchtop saws are dubious at best.
I have ripped thin strips with just a strait edge and my Makita cordless using a foam backboard.
The two things I don't like my track saw for are any cutting of little pieces of wood and cutting several pieces to exactly the same width. I can cut little pieces, it is just not very handy to do versus the table saw. Usually I put a scrap of the same thickness under the track and make the cut. Very possible, just not the easiest way to do it.
To make multiples with my track saw I would use what I call a track positioning guide. It is just a stick with a movable stop and a hairline piece to go over a stick on ruler. I can set a distance I want to cut and then use the jig to position the track. It is quite accurate to use, just much slower than ripping a bunch of pieces to width on a table saw using the rip fence. Worst example would be ripping up some wood for door rails and stiles. Not big pieces, all need to be the same width. I could do it but I would sure prefer to use even a cheap table saw.
I had a very cheap Ryobi table saw. I think it cost about $100. It had a direct drive motor. The fence was a disaster, the only way to use it was to measure both ends to get it parallel. I threw it away even though it worked. The only reason I kept it around for awhile is it is sometimes handy to have two saws. It would do at least narrow dado cuts. If you took the time to set up the cut with it I don't think it was particularly dangerous. But it certainly wasn't nice to use and I eventually decided I just don't have the space to keep it around. But if I only had my track saw and that cheapo Ryobi, I would do some cuts on the Ryobi. I say this to say while I would not want to be without my track saw it is far preferable to use it for large pieces of wood and the table saw for small.
If the consumers product safety commission implements the proposed rule and it stands up, I think some people will just make their own table saw out of a circular saw. That would be close to the cheapo Ryobi. There is one guy on yourtube that uses a pretty nice looking table saw that uses a circular saw for the primary mechanicals. I bet he sells a bunch of plans.
Too much nanny nonsense IMHO. I'd rather have the commission publish something on the clear plastic packaging you have to cut off your purchase. I'm sure there are injuries due to that sort of packaging and it is totally not necessary.
To make multiples with my track saw I would use what I call a track positioning guide. It is just a stick with a movable stop and a hairline piece to go over a stick on ruler. I can set a distance I want to cut and then use the jig to position the track. It is quite accurate to use, just much slower than ripping a bunch of pieces to width on a table saw using the rip fence. Worst example would be ripping up some wood for door rails and stiles. Not big pieces, all need to be the same width. I could do it but I would sure prefer to use even a cheap table saw.
I had a very cheap Ryobi table saw. I think it cost about $100. It had a direct drive motor. The fence was a disaster, the only way to use it was to measure both ends to get it parallel. I threw it away even though it worked. The only reason I kept it around for awhile is it is sometimes handy to have two saws. It would do at least narrow dado cuts. If you took the time to set up the cut with it I don't think it was particularly dangerous. But it certainly wasn't nice to use and I eventually decided I just don't have the space to keep it around. But if I only had my track saw and that cheapo Ryobi, I would do some cuts on the Ryobi. I say this to say while I would not want to be without my track saw it is far preferable to use it for large pieces of wood and the table saw for small.
If the consumers product safety commission implements the proposed rule and it stands up, I think some people will just make their own table saw out of a circular saw. That would be close to the cheapo Ryobi. There is one guy on yourtube that uses a pretty nice looking table saw that uses a circular saw for the primary mechanicals. I bet he sells a bunch of plans.
Too much nanny nonsense IMHO. I'd rather have the commission publish something on the clear plastic packaging you have to cut off your purchase. I'm sure there are injuries due to that sort of packaging and it is totally not necessary.
I have an old Unisaw. That I got NEW never used.
works great for me. No riving knife no blade guard and @ 70+ years of common sense and responsible use, I still have all my digits and have never had a “kick-back”.
Just replaced all 3 drive belts with link-belt and WOW!!! What an improvement!
No more vibration! Lovin‘ it for sure.
works great for me. No riving knife no blade guard and @ 70+ years of common sense and responsible use, I still have all my digits and have never had a “kick-back”.
Just replaced all 3 drive belts with link-belt and WOW!!! What an improvement!
No more vibration! Lovin‘ it for sure.
Circ saw in a table is the most dangerous thing you can do. No riving knife, no guard, iffy fence if there is one. I have seen you-tubes ribbing without a fence. Yes, some people are that stupid.
I assume Jim, you are talking about the anti-theft-rigid-pain-it-the-backside packaging a lot of things come in. The problem is the packaging design that is intentionally hard to open because, well a lot of people are scum. As you experienced a cheap table top saw, you can see why I would shed no tear if they went away.
I expect there is a difference between say a WEN ( champ of cheap tools) track saw and a Makita, Milwaukee or Festool. What I would not want to do on a track saw is ripping strips for Kumiko. Not sure how good it would be on any cut with less than 6 or so inches under the track, so I keep my table saw.
I have no idea of their plans, but if I was in SawStop management I would be looking at innovation and features to keep my saws the preferred choice. Look at the new Harvey fence and the new SawStop miter gauge. Delta front mounted controls. ( or servo would be even better) How about servo height adjustment with memory presets? Same for tilt. Dynamic braking as how many injuries are impatience clearing work or waste before the blade stops? Would love to see some way to make blade changing easier. Even a screen just below the arbor to catch the nut you drop from the top. Do something serious about dust. Heck even DeWalt in their benchtop planer has active chip extraction. I believe a fair portion of the market would pay for premium if it was in fact premium on a cabinet saw. On the lower end, job-site and contractor, I suspect price is the main factor. Job site tools have a miraculous ability to grow legs and walk away.
Anyway, I expect my old school Harvey to outlast me so I will have gotten my money's worth.
I assume Jim, you are talking about the anti-theft-rigid-pain-it-the-backside packaging a lot of things come in. The problem is the packaging design that is intentionally hard to open because, well a lot of people are scum. As you experienced a cheap table top saw, you can see why I would shed no tear if they went away.
I expect there is a difference between say a WEN ( champ of cheap tools) track saw and a Makita, Milwaukee or Festool. What I would not want to do on a track saw is ripping strips for Kumiko. Not sure how good it would be on any cut with less than 6 or so inches under the track, so I keep my table saw.
I have no idea of their plans, but if I was in SawStop management I would be looking at innovation and features to keep my saws the preferred choice. Look at the new Harvey fence and the new SawStop miter gauge. Delta front mounted controls. ( or servo would be even better) How about servo height adjustment with memory presets? Same for tilt. Dynamic braking as how many injuries are impatience clearing work or waste before the blade stops? Would love to see some way to make blade changing easier. Even a screen just below the arbor to catch the nut you drop from the top. Do something serious about dust. Heck even DeWalt in their benchtop planer has active chip extraction. I believe a fair portion of the market would pay for premium if it was in fact premium on a cabinet saw. On the lower end, job-site and contractor, I suspect price is the main factor. Job site tools have a miraculous ability to grow legs and walk away.
Anyway, I expect my old school Harvey to outlast me so I will have gotten my money's worth.
So, you are the lucky one. I had two kick backs WITH the splitter in place on my old contractor saw doing nothing sketchy. Small and thin stock. I will not use a saw without a riving knife. I consider it just as important as my pile of push blocks.
On the link belts, do they work out as exactly the same size? When running, look at the flutter. Is it the same for all? Chinese V belts are garbage. No two the same size ( my 3 belts were actually only one driving ) and splices not flat. Gates or D&D power make good V belts but not having a set would make blade changing easier as the blade won't keep rotating to the set position.
To the extent that is shapes the present discussion: FWIW TTS Tooltechnic Systems holding company. (parent to Festool and Shaper Origin) bought Saw Stop in July 2017.
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