Router question

[lwhughes149]

I am considering kitchen cabinets as my next project which brings up my question. I plan to use birch plywood for construction with cherry faceframes. I would like to lap my joints on the faceframe, I don't have a faceframe jointer but do have one that uses a 10 or 20 biscuit. Would that size biscuit be too large for faceframing? Could I use a brad gun to attach the frame and cover the holes? The other question concerns the cherry that will cover the plywood across the front for the shelf. My friend uses a stile/rail bit to joint this board. My router is 1 3/4 hp. I would have to buy the bits which I can but my concern is the hp of my router, is it strong enough for this application? I plan to make a simple stile/rail panel door with 1/4 inch cherry plywood for the panel which would keep me from having to buy that more expensive router and those very expensive raised panel bits. Thanks for the help. Lorraine

 

[DaveO]

I am considering kitchen cabinets as my next project which brings up my question. I plan to use birch plywood for construction with cherry faceframes. I would like to lap my joints on the faceframe,
Half lap is a great joint for FF
I don't have a faceframe jointer but do have one that uses a 10 or 20 biscuit. Would that size biscuit be too large for faceframing?
That depends on the width of the face frame, if they are wide enough to accomodate the biscuit, that will work. PC has a plate jointer that has interchangable baldes and can use smaller FF size biscuits for Face Frames
Could I use a brad gun to attach the frame and cover the holes?
You will always know that you did, DAMHIKT :eusa_doh:
The other question concerns the cherry that will cover the plywood across the front for the shelf. My friend uses a stile/rail bit to joint this board. My router is 1 3/4 hp. I would have to buy the bits which I can but my concern is the hp of my router, is it strong enough for this application?
That is a great application for biscuit jointery. You can use a rail/stile bit with a 1¾ HP router, but you'll have to make many small cuts and the quality/accuracy will suffer.
I plan to make a simple stile/rail panel door with 1/4 inch cherry plywood for the panel which would keep me from having to buy that more expensive router and those very expensive raised panel bits.
For small doors a groove and stub tenon joint works great, and is very easy to execute with nothing more than a dado blade.
Thanks for the help. Lorraine

HTH a little, post some pics of the progress, I would enjoy seeing the cabs. come together :icon_thum

Dave

 

[McRabbet]

Lorraine,

You can make raised panel doors on your tablesaw using a sliding fixture like this one in my gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/379/medium/PanelJig3_348781.jpg. It has a hardwood slide that fits into the miter slot to the right of the blade and is adjustable right and left. After I set the position, I move the fence up to the jig and it slides without canting to the side. Notice the clamping caul that holds the panel in place. I set the blade to proper height and about 11 degrees of tilt. There is a stop built in to the jig at the front to hold the panel square; you can also back cut the panel with the blade set at no tilt. I also made the rails and stiles for my built-in display unit (see my Projects Gallery, painter white) project on the table saw -- I made haunched tenons for added strength (tenons were 1-1/4" long versus 3/8" to match the groove depth) and rough cut the mortises with a 1/4" Forstner bit before cleaning them out with a bench chisel. Largest doors were 23-1/2" wide by 33" high and rock solid (all birch).

HTH -- Rob

 

[tom hintz]

Lorraine,
While your router is strong enough to handle most rail and stile bits, they should be used in a router table only. These are not good choices for hand-held work because of their diameters and the kind of cut they take.
You can make the kind of flat panel doors you describe on the table saw pretty easily (or with a router in a table) and I have a story on that process at the link below that might give you an idea or two.

The biscuit joiner you have will work fine for face frames and though some poo-poo the idea, I still use a brad nailer to apply face frames, especially after someone rants at me about using the gun. (I shoot at least one brad someplace in every project out of spite....)

Building Tongue and Groove Doors - NewWoodworker.com LLC

 

[lwhughes149]

Tom and Rob, thanks for the information. I am considering a simple design door for the cabinets with 1/4 inch cherry plywood for the panels. The reason is simple. I wish to cut down on the amount of solid cherry that I will need. Inventory tells me I should have enough for the stiles/rails and faceframes. If I run short I would only have to purchase a small amount. My biggest concern is attachment of the faceframe. My husband is a deck builder sort of person but wants to help me with this project. My reference materials date back to the 70's when small finishing nails were used to attach faceframes and they are still there today, so why not a brad gun. Yes, if it was a perfect world I would just go out and purchase a jointer from PC and use biscuits but I don't have that money to spend. I will be experimenting with the plywood and faceframes on my router cabinet. You will be hearing from me and that raised panel jig interest me. I will ask questions about it in the future I am sure. Watch for me I am sure I will have lots of questions yet. Lorraine

 

[tom hintz]

In the real perfect world, you make the cabinets, are proud of them and learn a little along the way.
There isn't a thing wrong with flat panel doors as you are considering. There are lots of cabinet shops that sell a ton of them and get big bucks for the job because people still like the look.
Have fun, make cool-looking cabinets and worry about the fancy machines when the budget gets too big to handle!

 

[jglord]

Another option you may want to consider is using pocket screws. Pocket screws are a quick and easy way to join the corners of a face frame and can also be used to attach the face frames to the cabinet. If the outside of a cabinet will not be seen - i.e. the cabinet will either be against a wall or another cabinet, you can drill the pocket hole on the outside of the cabinet.
For the flat panel doors: there is a good article on building the door frames using a 3 wing cutter with a table mounter router. Table mounting a router can be done very simply as demonstrated by the Router Workshop (PBS program). These guys just have the router mounted to a plate, lift it out to adjust the height and clamp a fence across the table with 2 C-clamps.

 

[RandyJ]

Lorraine, I have the PC plate jointer with the FF blade. If you decide to go the biscuit route, you are more than welcome to use it. Just PM me and we can set up the pick-up.
Take care,

 

[lwhughes149]

Thank you Randy, I appreciate the offer and I might take you up on it. I hope to finalize my plans in a week or two. Thanks again for the kind offer. I have seen Larry Vincent in Littleton use that jointer. I will let you know. My husband and I are having lunch today in Littleton with the new barber and his wife. Seems she is interested in woodworking. She and her father use to make furniture together. She has just retired. Lorraine

 

[McRabbet]

Lorraine,

My sliding tablesaw jig for making raised panels and shown in the Jigs and Fixtures section of my Photo Gallery, was inspired by an article in Wood magazine in September 2005, pg. 60-63 (I made mine larger and used three braces). The cover story for the issue features a computer desk system and there is a good set of illustrations in that story on how to make mortise & tenon joints for rails and stiles, even haunched tenons as I mentioned. Another trick is shown in a sidebar in that article that suggests using disks cut from 1/2" foam caulk-backer cord to keep a panel floating in the groove of a door. The methods in the articles will apply to your project, even with the 1/4" flat plywood panel.

If you do not have that issue, I can make a copy of the article for you and send it to you.

Rob

 

[lwhughes149]

Rob would you send me a copy of the article. lwhughes149@yahoo.com is my e-mail or mail to Lorraine Hughes 149 Connie Lane, Littleton, NC 27850.

 

[McRabbet]

Rob would you send me a copy of the article. lwhughes149@yahoo.com is my e-mail or mail to Lorraine Hughes 149 Connie Lane, Littleton, NC 27850.

Will do... Sorry for delay in answer -- I've been in the shop all day. I'll copy it tonight and send it to you.

Rob

 

[toolferone]

I want to make sure I understand one question. You asked if you could use a biscuit jointer for the FF? To attach the FF corners to each other the biscuit would be to big. To attach the FF to the cabinet box the 10 or 20 biscuit should work fine. I use this method all the time. The biscuit will be in the back of the FF to the front edge of the cabinet. Using 3/4" thickness FF (standard) the biscuit will not poke out the front and you will NOT have to brad nail the FF to the carcass. You will have to clamp the FF in place while the glue dries. The brad nails could be the clamps, but we don't want the nail holes, because a filled nail hole will always look like a filled nail hole.

 

[junquecol]

You might want to get hold of a copy of Danny Proulx's book "Build Your Own Kitchen Cabinets". This is a "coffee table book" with lots of color pictures. Danny does his face frames a little different from most. They are made from 1" wide stock. They project inside the cabinet about the thickness of a credit card, and overhang the outside by about 1/4-3/8 inch. This allows the use of "European Hardware" (cup hinges,drawer slides, etc) without having to shim out sides of cabinets. He screws frames together and nails, or pocket screws them to boxes. Boxes are butt joined using screws, with a end panel added to cover screws. Once you try his methods, you will really find that they work well. As a plus there is a table for cutting lengths of tops, bottoms, and sides along with face frame cutting deminsions, using 5/8 or 3/4 material. Check Amazon for price on his book. Best I can remember , Woodcraft has this book on shelf.

 

[lwhughes149]

Bruce, thanks for the information about the book. I will check it out. I have three books from the college library. They have wonderful information but they date back to the 70's so nails are the thing. This is going to be so much fun, can't wait to get started but have a lot of decision to make before I get started. I will save all this information because it is all good. Hay Dave, how do I print all this stuff out or save it to a file?

 

[DaveO]

Hay Dave, how do I print all this stuff out or save it to a file?

I would think that you could highlight the text in the thread and either Print>Selection or Copy/Paste into a Word doc. to save somewhere. Or just Bookmark/Add to favorites the thread and you should always be able to come back to it.
Dave