Odd electrical issue

[wbwufpack]

I need some help with a household electrical issue that recently popped up. I have a circuit that has recently started tripping the breaker whenever a significant load is applied. It is one of the Eaton breakers with a test button, I believe it is called an arc fault circuit interrupter. The circuit has 4 indoor duplex outlets, 1 interior overhead light, an exterior coach light, and an exterior flood light. The house is a little over 3 years old and I have not experienced any other electrical issues up to this point.

Here is the situation. I can plug a single lamp into any outlet or turn on any single light and the circuit functions normally. However, when I try to run multiple outlets, throw multiple switches, or anything else that pulls a few amps the breaker blows.

I have opened up what I believe is the first outlet in the circuit, checked the incoming hot and neutral connections, and unhooked the outgoing connections to disable the rest of the circuit. The breaker still trips when anything more than a small load is put on it. I figured I would start at the beginning to try to locate the problem area but that didn’t get me very far since the first outlet is appears to be affected.

I am thinking the next step is to swap the breaker out with a known good one to see if it behaves the same. I have never changed a breaker or opened up a panel before so I am a little hesitant to do so. If I go this route I may end up calling an electrician because I don’t want to get fried because I touched something I shouldn’t. Do you guys have any thoughts on what could have caused the circuit to start acting up all of the sudden?

 

[Newboy]

A ground fault circuit interrupter (GGC I) can go bad.

I look at them as a very delicate balance, balancing the current coming in with the current leaving. If those are not exactly balanced, some current is going somewhere else, like to the ground wire, or you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[JackLeg]

Breakers do go bad. I'd replace it.

:notworthy:

 

[Gofor]

First step before changing it is to determine if its a ground fault (GFCI) breaker or an arc fault. If you are at all hesitant, hiring a licensed electrician is an excellent choice. Ask him to walk you through the steps in changing one if you want to try it in the future. All breakers can go bad and prematurely trigger.

Ground fault breakers protect you from being electrocuted by an appliance. Arc fault breakers protect you from your house catching fire due to faulty wiring/connections. Each has their place, so make sure you have the correct breaker before replacing or substituting. If you have a fault, a normal breaker may not detect it where one of the others will.

Go

 

[redknife]

Some thoughts: (assuming AFCI)
AFCI breakers often require a load on the circuit to trip (ectronic analysis of signal), so it is not unusual that your AFCI trips under a load. I believe instant AFCI trips without load are generally something egregious in the wiring. Details matter for afci's: what load? Dimmers? Motors? How fast is load applied?

Does your Eaton AFCI have an LED indicator? If so it should flash with a code indicating the cause of the AFCI trip. We have Siemens and Eaton AFCI's and both brands have LED lights with code reference stickers on the panel door.
If you become comfortable turning of your main breaker and opening up the panel, check the wiring of the AFCI. The circuit's neutral should connect to the breaker and a curly white wire should emanate from the breaker and attach to the neutral bar. If you can't safely work in the panel then you probably should have an electrician evaluate the circuit.
You can also contact Eaton. Their breakers have warranties longer than 3 years As I recall and would also likely guide you in rudimentary troubleshooting.

 

[ehpoole]

The Eaton brand AFCIs can be particularly troublesome, but especially if it is one of their earlier designs. But your first step is to make sure that it is really an AFCI and not a GFCI or a combination AFCI+GFCI breaker.

AFCIs, or Arc Fault Circuit Interruptors, look for any evidence of arcing, which will look like high frequency noise and sudden variations in current demand, on the circuit they monitor and trip if they see such behavior. Ideally such is an indication of a loose or frayed wire arcing and they trip to prevent a possible fire. The catch, however, is that every flip of a switch generates arcing, plugging in a device that happens to be powered on, or is always on, generates arcing, and things like magnetic ballasts and induction motors create what can look like a fault, and universal motors arc constantly at their brushes. Worse still, the Eaton brand AFCIs are notorious for their sensitivity to RF (radio), with the older style far worse but the issue still exists in current models, and not only are our homes filled with devices that generate RF (cellphones, WiFi, BleuTooth, cordless phones, garage door openers, alarm systems, etc.) but even individuals within your neighborhood using FRS/GMRS radios, CB, or amateur (ham) radio can inadvertently trip such defective AFCI breakers within a wide area through no fault of the radio operators as it is the AFCIs that are at fault in those instances.

If it is a GFCI, or a combination, then it will detect ground faults where there is current leaking to ground and dies so by monitoring the ratio if power flowing out the hot leg and into the neutral leg, which should ordinarily always be 1:1 in an ideal world. However, they can also false trip if too much capacitive or inductive coupling exists, which looks exactly like leakage to ground and is the reason why magnetic ballasts and motor loads can sometimes false trip GFCIs, especially those of older design. If you have ever setup Christmas lights outdoors and had it rain, you have likely had a GFCI trip do to the small amount of leakage the wet connections outdoors have created to ground (anything on the order of 5mA is enough to cause a trip).

But your first step is to closely inspect the loads that cause the trip to ensure bulbs are tightly connected or screwed in and that switches are working properly (replace any flaky switches). If you still have trips, replace the breaker (with the same type AFCI, GFCI, or AFCI+GFCI) as they can fail, though if you can opt for a non-Eaton that is compatible with your load panel then do so, otherwise replace it with a modern equivalent Eaton (I just hate putting a known non-reliable product back in a panel if such can be avoided). Just prepare for some sticker shock when it comes to AFCI breakers (though Eatons are usually cheapest, which is why they get so widely used). In some cases a call to Eaton has permitted individuals to secure free replacements, so you may wish to try that option first.

But the real problem is that AFCIs were rushed into service at a time when they were still largely experimental and that has forced every homeowner whose home was built in the last 10-12 years to be a Guinea pig for their continued development and it is often the homeowner that has to foot the bill for the troubles that has created. Eventually they will be as reliable as most GFCIs, which have undergone many decades of development, but they are not quite there yet and still have a ways to go.

As always, if you are even the least bit uncertain of your abilities or uncomfortable changing a circuit breaker, which requires removing the cover on your load panel, then please hire an electrician and take no chances.

If you continue to have issues after changing out the breaker then you will want to identify all the outlets, switches, and lighting fixtures on the same circuit and open up their boxes to ensure that all wiring connections remain tight as that will be your next most likely cause of tripping due to actual arcing if their exist any loose connections along the line, and they will only arc when a load is present beyond the loose connection. But remember to kill power before doing so, and you may wish to allow an electrician to handle this step for you as well. The only reason I do not suggest this as a first step is because it can be easy to sometimes create new loose connections when you start pulling things apart and redoing the connections, especially if wirenuts are used and the wires are not twisted tightly enough together.

 

[wbwufpack]

This is really helpful…

@ redknife – Yes it does have an LED light that is blinking with trouble code 1. This appears to be a low current arc fault. If I have unhooked all but one outlet wouldn’t that narrow it down to there being an issue with the outlet itself, the wiring between the breaker and outlet, or the breaker?

@ehpoole – Holy cow you weren’t kidding about the price of these things. I will be calling Eaton to see if they can help out.

I have done a little research and feel a little better about going into the panel as long as the main breaker is off. That being said, I have 2 neighbors that have finished their basements including doing the electrical work. I am going to have one of them come over and walk me through this the first time just to be on the safe side. I’ll keep you guys posted.

Thanks again!

 

[redknife]

This is really helpful…

@ redknife – Yes it does have an LED light that is blinking with trouble code 1. This appears to be a low current arc fault. If I have unhooked all but one outlet wouldn’t that narrow it down to there being an issue with the outlet itself, the wiring between the breaker and outlet, or the breaker

eaton code 1: "A low current “series” arc has been detected within one of the current pathways. These arcs are typically found in worn ordegraded appliance and extension cords, poor connections in appliances or fixtures, or in contacts within equipment"

On series arcs from Mike Holt:
"Arcing faults can occur in one of two ways, series arcing faults or parallel arcing faults, but the most dangerous of these is the parallel arc. A series arc can occur when the conductor in series with the load is unintentionally broken. Examples might be a frayed conductor in a cord that has pulled apart or a loose connection to a receptacle or in a splice. A series arc is load limited, such that arc current cannot be greater than the load the conductor serves. Current with an arc in series has a lower rms value than current without the arc due to extinction and re-ignition. Typically, series arcs do not cause enough heat to create a fire."

re"wouldn't that narrow down to...":
make sure you indeed have the first outlet isolated. Your list of possibilities is incomplete: Whatever load(s) you are plugging in to that first outlet for your test would be a potential culprit. If a lamp, is there loose wiring inside, cord trauma; extension cord problem etc.
if you have someone comfortable with the box and circuit wiring, you can directly test the breaker by disconnecting the problematic circuit and wiring at least 4 foot of wire to the breaker with the other ends wired to a test outlet setup. Test known good loads there. You have to be safe and understand the system for this test test though. If the breaker works properly with your test controlled circuit then you should keep looking for problems in the houses's circuit or loads on the circuit. Plenty of people come to find out that there is indeed a source. If the test setup trips the AFCI, then try replacing and see if you can get Eaton to pay.

 

[Truefire]

Those prior have covered this issue really well and it doesn't seem like my question to follow would subtract from the original poster's inquiry. Therefore, I have a question for Ethan. I'm familiar with the nuisance tripping on the AFCIs and actually don't like Eaton brands at all. You brought up an interesting facet I was not familiar with Ethan. Are you saying the internal components of the devices are sensing airborne RF signals? (Or) due to the solid state technology of the many devices being charged, are the AFCIs sensing abrubt changes to the sine wave on a given branch circuit to which they are plugged into, which is the issue?

You did state, "RF signals" but I'm wanting to confirm. Im familiar with harmonics created on nuetrals on non linear loads, wondering just how sensitive to the frequency shifts these AFCIs are to that as well.

 

[ehpoole]

Those prior have covered this issue really well and it doesn't seem like my question to follow would subtract from the original poster's inquiry. Therefore, I have a question for Ethan. I'm familiar with the nuisance tripping on the AFCIs and actually don't like Eaton brands at all. You brought up an interesting facet I was not familiar with Ethan. Are you saying the internal components of the devices are sensing airborne RF signals? (Or) due to the solid state technology of the many devices being charged, are the AFCIs sensing abrubt changes to the sine wave on a given branch circuit to which they are plugged into, which is the issue?

You did state, "RF signals" but I'm wanting to confirm. Im familiar with harmonics created on nuetrals on non linear loads, wondering just how sensitive to the frequency shifts these AFCIs are to that as well.

I am only aware of the many reports in the field concerning Eaton branded AFCI breakers, so my details are limited, but the issue seems to be related to common mode pickup of radio signals where the branch circuit wiring is behaving as an antenna (as any length of wire will). It is a well known issue within the ham community as a single station broadcasting at a typical 50-100W on HF/VHF/UHF can potentially bring down numerous circuits throughout a neighborhood if all the homes were built with the Eaton brand AFCIs (which is not uncommon in new communities these days where all the homes are built over a year or two period by the same builder). Eaton has replacement AFCIs that have a "-ham" designation on them that are less sensitive to the issue but have yet to fully resolve the issue last I heard whereas other brands seem vastly more immune to such to such issues. Many report that the newer replacement AFCI significantly abated the nuisance trips, but that has not been the experience in every case where RF pickup was the cause.

But even lower powered radio transmitters like FRS/GMRS and MURS handheld radios transmitting with as little as a few tenths of a watt have tripped susceptible breakers in some tests. Since this is apparently an issue with common mode RF piggybacking on the branch circuit wiring then it is certainly conceivable that an especially noisy power supply, or the cacophony of many such sources, might be able to generate suitable RF to cause such as well, but I do not know that to be fact, just surmising that such is a possibility. These sorts of issues often tend to vary with frequency and power levels as branch circuit wiring can be of varying length and certain lengths of wire will be more resonant, and thus more sensitive, to a given frequency than others, which is likely where much of the variation is and why a strong signal nearby does not necessarily trip every AFCI in a given panel.

I am not fond of AFCIs in general as I think the technology was rushed to market prematurely (and probably needed another several decades to fully workout the sensing algorithms), but the Eaton brand is by far the worst of all as the other brands have far fewer nuisance trips by orders of magnitude and I do not care for Eaton AFCIs at all. Unfortunately, many who buy a home built within the last 10-12 years that is equipped with AFCIs by the original builder will likely have Eaton brand AFCIs as they are cheaper and often more readily available in quantity than the other brands, and shaving 10-20% off the cost of AFCIs can mean a lot of extra cash in the developer's pocket when multiplied over a number of homes given the absurd cost of AFCI breakers (there is no good reason for AFCI and GFCI breakers to cost as much as they do as the added electronics cost remarkably little, very likely less than $1 per breaker). Speaking from a homeowner's perspective, though, one refrigerator and freezer's contents lost to a nuisance AFCI trip while out of town would greatly exceed the savings initially afforded by the cheaper AFCI breakers for a typical home, IMHO. If one ever has the chance, by any quality brand other than Eaton as you will only bear the pain of that cost premium once and will likely have far fewer headaches down the road versus the cheaper Eaton AFCIs.

And Chris, you are always welcome to ask any question you may have as I am more than happy to answer to the best of my knowledge or experience!

 

[nn4jw]

A couple of questions for the original poster.

1. Were any of the circuits you listed as on the failing AFCI recently added or were they always there?
2. In the situation where you can plug something into a single outlet without tripping the breaker, what happens if you plug a single heavier load into that same outlet? In other words, if a single 60 watt bulb doesn't trip the breaker how about a 1200 watt hair dryer in that same outlet (minus the bulb)?

If you can run that 1200 watt hair dryer as the only thing plugged into that breaker and not trip the breaker, but two 60 watt bulbs in different outlets trip it then it's not simply the amount of the load. There's something else going on.

But before diagnosing further it would be useful to know the answers to those questions first.

 

[wbwufpack]

I installed a new breaker yesterday with the help of a neighbor. It is actually not that bad if you throw the main switch before doing anything. I turned on all of the lights on the circuit and plugged in my wife's hairdryer and the breaker held. I can't imagine that circuit will ever see a higher load so I am chalking the issue up to a quirky AFCI.

I am going to call Eaton tomorrow to see if I can get reimbursed for the breaker which was $43 at Lowes.

I did learn a good trick while going through this process. Take a Sharpie and write the circuit/breaker number on the back of the switch plate or outlet cover. That way you always know what breaker to throw once you have the cover off.

Thanks a lot for all of the advice. I learned a good bit reading this thread in addition to fixing the issue.

 

[wbwufpack]

A couple of questions for the original poster.

1. Were any of the circuits you listed as on the failing AFCI recently added or were they always there?
2. In the situation where you can plug something into a single outlet without tripping the breaker, what happens if you plug a single heavier load into that same outlet? In other words, if a single 60 watt bulb doesn't trip the breaker how about a 1200 watt hair dryer in that same outlet (minus the bulb)?

If you can run that 1200 watt hair dryer as the only thing plugged into that breaker and not trip the breaker, but two 60 watt bulbs in different outlets trip it then it's not simply the amount of the load. There's something else going on.

But before diagnosing further it would be useful to know the answers to those questions first.

These are good questions. I believe I have resolved the issue (knocks on wood) but my answers may be beneficial to others in the future.

1. I did not add an outlets or switches to the circuit. I did change a light fixture out on the circuit but that was over a year.

2. A single heavier load would trip the outlet. A single 60w bulb would run just fine, but not two 60w flood lights. I actually did go get the hairdryer for one of my first tests and that thing tripped instantly.

 

[Truefire]

Great stuff there Ethan! Thanks for sharing the in-depth insight into the world of Ham equipment and it's impacts. I really appreciate the insight and knowledge. Something new to learn all the time. Being a licensed electrician myself, I'm still amazed and quite often amused at the depth and breadth of this field. There has been so much uncovered in the past few years. Not considering specific technologies but its really hard for me to digest that its taken so many years for us to truly learn about interrupting capacity and arc flash capabilities and their seriousness. Another subject entirely but 15 years ago we worked in 277/480V panels hot without even a blink....well, with one hand. but still....stupid...when you really don't have to.

Anyway, like I said, that's another subject entirely.

Back to manuf--Yeah, I'm a Square D man myself and don't care too much for any of Cutler Hammer's stuff. But their components, panel cans and enclosures are both far and near. I live with them..."hey, i'm not complaining, they provide me with quite a bit of work" It can be a little challenging at times with all the youtube vids and such because everyone wants to do their own work nowdays. Puts me in a strain/ stress at times.

-- I couldn't agree with you more-- the AFCI technology hit the market way too early.

 

[nn4jw]

These are good questions. I believe I have resolved the issue (knocks on wood) but my answers may be beneficial to others in the future.

1. I did not add an outlets or switches to the circuit. I did change a light fixture out on the circuit but that was over a year.

2. A single heavier load would trip the outlet. A single 60w bulb would run just fine, but not two 60w flood lights. I actually did go get the hairdryer for one of my first tests and that thing tripped instantly.

Looks like you resolved the problem, congratulations. The dryer tripping the breaker was a good indicator of a failed breaker.

 

[obxdiver]

I'm in the process of expanding my services... getting older and looking for a way to make money that doesn't involve jumping in freezing cold water or having to climb a bulkhead like a monkey, lol. More specifically, I'm now certified in ABYC Marine Electrical & Corrosion Mitigation and will soon start the NMEA Marine Electronics Installer course. Though I've been doing those type things for years, I figured I'd make it "official" before I started offering paid services to people I don't personally know.

Anyway, I wanted to say great info here! This thread has been an educational experience and I'd like to send out a big thank you to those posting. :notworthy:

 

[ehpoole]

I'm in the process of expanding my services... getting older and looking for a way to make money that doesn't involve jumping in freezing cold water or having to climb a bulkhead like a monkey, lol. More specifically, I'm now certified in ABYC Marine Electrical & Corrosion Mitigation and will soon start the NMEA Marine Electronics Installer course. Though I've been doing those type things for years, I figured I'd make it "official" before I started offering paid services to people I don't personally know.

Anyway, I wanted to say great info here! This thread has been an educational experience and I'd like to send out a big thank you to those posting. :notworthy:

We certainly wish you all the very best in your new venture. I have certainly seen plenty of videos of boats that could really use some help when it comes to professional wiring, so I hope they seek your help and that business is good to you!

Have you considered getting a GROL (General Radio Operators License) license so that you may also inspect and repair ship (or aircraft) radios and, with the proper endorsement, radar as well? I've toyed with the idea of seeing how many FCC licenses I can accrue, lol -- but I have been tempted if only to possibly bum time on other people's boats plus I enjoy repairing electronics in my free time and have a good deal of equipment for such repairs since electronics is a hobby of mine.

 

[Roy G]

Brian deserves quote of the day honors. "It is actually not that bad if you throw the main switch before doing anything." i fully agree with that statement.

Roy G

 

[Truefire]

Ethan- are the Eaton brand breakers which are designated for use around 'ham' radios marked with a defined, manufacturing type stamp, embossed designator? Understanding they'd be 'listed' but do they possess that designator or are you referring to another type marked breaker which are being used in that capacity which may not possess such a embossing?

 

[ehpoole]

Ethan- are the Eaton brand breakers which are designated for use around 'ham' radios marked with a defined, manufacturing type stamp, embossed designator? Understanding they'd be 'listed' but do they possess that designator or are you referring to another type marked breaker which are being used in that capacity which may not possess such a embossing?

My understanding, as I have not seen such first hand, is that somewhere on the face, perhaps in the part number designation, there are the actual letters "-ham" stamped on the revised AFCI breakers (perhaps as experimental revisions?). They have sometimes been provided to hams, or the affected homeowners, when they have worked together with neighbors to voluntarily resolve issues related to radio operations (legally such is not a requirement on the part of radio operators, but one does try to be a good neighbor when neighbors behave civily towards one another and try to help one another out...as one should whenever possible), in many instances free of charge if there are active and demonstrable RF nuisance trips affecting a customer.

I do not know whether they are in general circulation or if they are only available upon request. If you have specific questions about them you may wish to inquire with Eaton directly as they should have more info available on the matter. Hopefully the improvements will be (have?) filtered down to the regular runs at some point if they have not already done so, though there is still more work to be done before they can be considered to be nearly as reliable as some of the better alternatives as the improvements have not resolved all RF issues reported (but they have solved a good many).

I am fortunate enough at the moment to live in a neighborhood just a bit too old (predominantly 10-20 years) to have many AFCIs in our neighborhood, so I have not had to work with Eaton directly myself. However, I may not be as lucky if we end up moving to Orlando in the next year or so as we are likely looking at building new where I stand a much greater chance if being surrounded by those dreaded AFCIs and it would not surprise me if the builder uses Eaton brand as so many do to save money.