Next level?

[Jeff]

I have several DMT diamond stones finishing at 1200 grit which have worked very well for me. Now I'm considering a couple of Shapton ceramic glass stones to take it up a notch incrementally to 4,000 and 10,000.

A few points from my peanut gallery:

1. How sharp is sharp enough for the task? My DMT 1200 grit does just fine and I can't tell a difference in the appearance, feel, or fit of the pieces. Do we overdo it with the sharpening marketing hype?

2. Who notices it at the end of the day? "It must have been a dull chisel or plane iron because it looks and feels terrible!"

3. Polish at higher grits for that really keen edge. What the .... does that mean and why is it necessary? Does the wood know that it's been prepped with a polished tool and feels like a baby's ####?

Sorry for my soap box but I'm going to shave with a regular old razor whose blades are disposable.

So what's your take on it?

 

[Mike Davis]

For me there are different levels for different tools. My chisels get 600 grit and a strop pretty often while I work. Paring end grain takes it up to 8,000 on the Shaptons. My hand planes are sharpened to 600 on diamonds then a translucent Arkansas stone and finally a leather strop, except for the #4. It get the highest degree of sharpness because it is considered a finishing tool. The #4 blade goes all the way to 16,000 grit.

Before I got the high end Shapton stones my highest grade stone was the translucent Arkansas and green paste on the leather strop.
i can tell the difference in the final finish with the 16,000 grit stone. I might hit a few spots with a card scraper but that finish never sees sandpaper.

 

[KenOfCary]

As Mike says the necessary degree of sharpness depends on the tool and its use. Carving tools need to be extremely sharp and need to be kept that way thus are honed regularly with a strop while using them. Turning tools can mostly be put to use straight off the grinding wheel, but will be sharpened more often at the wheel. Like Mike my #4 plane blade gets much more attention than a #6 or even 5 does.

So, the answer is - it depends.

I wish I had a good size Translucent Arkansas. I have several small ones for touching up carving tools. I do have an 8000 grit diamond that is very useful.

 

[SubGuy]

I find that a highly honed edge with quality steel holds the edge longer.
In my mind, (hypothetical) if I get 100 quality clean cuts from 200 grit sharpening. And I get 150 or 200 from a 600 to 1000 grit sharpening, it was worth the extra 2-5 minutes per tool.
While I haven't done any scientific observations to prove that. My experience has been as stated above (not necessary by the numbers). It may be worth while to do such an experiment to establish benefits per application and steel quality. What do you think?

 

[SubGuy]

Oh and I like the look of a highly polish finish.

 

[CrealBilly]

I stink at sharpening just about everything. Except chainsaws which with a round and flat file I can get the chain to throw out curls longer than my middle finger. Twist drills on the bench grinder no problem either and I'm getting pretty good at sharpening my hunting knives. But I really need a general sharpening class or someone to teach me... I've tried reading about how to sharpen, it just doesn't help me much at all.

 

[Jeremy Scuteri]

I stink at sharpening just about everything. Except chainsaws which with a round and flat file I can get the chain to throw out curls longer than my middle finger. Twist drills on the bench grinder no problem either and I'm getting pretty good at sharpening my hunting knives. But I really need a general sharpening class or someone to teach me... I've tried reading about how to sharpen, it just doesn't help me much at all.

You might like this: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/my-sharpening-system/

 

[Mark Gottesman]

Sharpening is just one side of the coin. At its most basic it is just a process to bring two surfaces together at a preferred angle and reduce the depth of the scratches on the surface. The other side of the coin is the tool being sharpened. That tool is a compromise of quality of tool fabrication, steel composition and blade heat treatment. The last two, particularly, will determine what sort of edge can be achieved and how long it will last before breaking down or turning. A lot of US consumer tools have a softer steel than say some handforged japanese tools. Due to the finer steel carbide particles and the higher developed hardness Japanese tools can take a finer edge that will last longer, but this hardness comes a risk of chipping and need for extra maintenance and skill to realize the full benefits.

I have several DMT diamond stones finishing at 1200 grit which have worked very well for me. Now I'm considering a couple of Shapton ceramic glass stones to take it up a notch incrementally to 4,000 and 10,000.

A few points from my peanut gallery:

1. How sharp is sharp enough for the task? My DMT 1200 grit does just fine and I can't tell a difference in the appearance, feel, or fit of the pieces. Do we overdo it with the sharpening marketing hype?

I use a plane at 325 for a lot of finishing on soft woods. With a simple oil and wax finish rubbed out with 0000 steel wool, it is good to go in my book and feels slick as glass. For fitting joints I might get out the 1200 waterstones and green chrome since I want to make absolutely sure I'm sliceing and not crushing. However, you are the final judge on how sharp is needed for your work.

2. Who notices it at the end of the day? "It must have been a dull chisel or plane iron because it looks and feels terrible!"

I look on a tool being sharp as a safer and more controllable tool. Also it allows you to reduce things like tearout and the tool running off where you don't want it to.

3. Polish at higher grits for that really keen edge. What the .... does that mean and why is it necessary? Does the wood know that it's been prepped with a polished tool and feels like a baby's ####?

Just what it says. As you bring a tool up through the various grits the depth of the scratches gets less and less and the edge is smoother. this leads to a cleaner cut which results in a cleanly sliced surface that feels a lot smoother than a sandpapered one and that clean cut surface also takes finish in a slightly different way.

I hope this answer has not muddied the water. I think the shaptons are a good improvement over some previous iterations and waterstones, but I can't justify adding something like that to my tool box at this time. IF my wood working improves to where my present sharpening gear is holding me back then I will be at the head of the line to get a set.

 

[Jeff]

Thanks folks. Your insight is valuable information. Since I've never been above 1200 grit I've missed an opportunity to see the differences first hand.

I'll probably get the Shaptons in 4000, 6000, and 8000 grit along with their stone holder. Not cheap, but not a show stopper either.

On a side note, I'm considering a Veritas #4 smoother to replace my $65 Stanley Bailey #4 (a PITA in my experience) which has a Hock A2 steel iron and chip breaker. Also, Veritas has a new PM-V11 steel alloy which may be worth a few extra bucks.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/product-finder/veritas-pm-v11-tool-steel.aspx

 

[Jeremy Scuteri]

It seems like 4000, 6000 and 8000 are clustered together very closely. You already have a 1200 grit. You might try something like 5000, 8000 and 16000 if you are getting 3 stones.

 

[Mark Gottesman]

Thanks folks. Your insight is valuable information. Since I've never been above 1200 grit I've missed an opportunity to see the differences first hand.

I'll probably get the Shaptons in 4000, 6000, and 8000 grit along with their stone holder. Not cheap, but not a show stopper either.

On a side note, I'm considering a Veritas #4 smoother to replace my $65 Stanley Bailey #4 (a PITA in my experience) which has a Hock A2 steel iron and chip breaker. Also, Veritas has a new PM-V11 steel alloy which may be worth a few extra bucks.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/product-finder/veritas-pm-v11-tool-steel.aspx

I think the PM-V11 would be worth the upfront cost. I am curious why the Bailey #4 is a PITA. What you describe should work real well.

 

[Jeff]

I am curious why the Bailey #4 is a PITA. What you describe should work real well.

The blade and chip breaker upgrades are fine. It's probably me and inherently poor adjustment mechanisms on that plane compared to what we have available today in higher end planes with better engineering. The Bailey just operates sloppily in my hands but perhaps it's my hands.

 

[Mike Davis]

Is that a new Bailey?

the older ones are much better.

if you get the Veritas I may be interested in the Hock.

 

[Jeff]

Is that a new Bailey?

the older ones are much better.

if you get the Veritas I may be interested in the Hock.

My Bailey is about 6-8 years old (from Rockler so probably not made in the USA). I've ordered a Veritas low angle #4 smoother. I may keep the Bailey until I can make some comparisons. If I decide to get rid of it you're welcome to it.

 

[merrill77]

On a side note, I'm considering a Veritas #4 smoother to replace my $65 Stanley Bailey #4 (a PITA in my experience) which has a Hock A2 steel iron and chip breaker. Also, Veritas has a new PM-V11 steel alloy which may be worth a few extra bucks.

FWIW, the bevel-up smoother is only a little more. I added two more blades and it's like three planes for the cost of ... umm ... one-and-a-half. I really like it.

 

[Rwe2156]

Thanks folks. Your insight is valuable information. Since I've never been above 1200 grit I've missed an opportunity to see the differences first hand.

I'll probably get the Shaptons in 4000, 6000, and 8000 grit along with their stone holder. Not cheap, but not a show stopper either.

On a side note, I'm considering a Veritas #4 smoother to replace my $65 Stanley Bailey #4 (a PITA in my experience) which has a Hock A2 steel iron and chip breaker. Also, Veritas has a new PM-V11 steel alloy which may be worth a few extra bucks.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/product-finder/veritas-pm-v11-tool-steel.aspx

I recently put a veritas blade/cap iron combo in my #4 Stanley and all I can say is WHAT A DIFFERENCE!
but like you I will break down one day and buy a decent plane. Looking at the WoodRivers right now.


To the orig post-- fwiw i I go from 1200 diamond stone to a 4000/8000 norton stone, sometimes skipping the 4000. I a few strokes I get a razor sharp edge. The norton water stone is a good option to a pricey ceramic like Shapton.

personally, I've never understood a 30000 grit stone. We're cutting wood, not doing skin grafts!

paul sellers has a video on sharpening a plane called sharpening to 250 grit or something like that.

i think there's a lot of hype about sharpening tools and I think people are spending a lot of money I unnecessarily.

Or.... For just a little more than the price of all those 3 Shaptons, you could get a Tormek.........
Good luck. Check it out You can get a norton 4k/8k for less than 75 bucks I think.

 

[Alex Stokes]

Thanks for all the replies (taking notes). Anyone know where you can get a leather sharpening strop?

 

[Mike Davis]

I've always made mine.

Saddle leather works great and an old belt will do in a pinch.

I glue the leather to a board so there is less chance of making too much convex on the blades.

 

[MarkE]

I just glue a piece of leather to a piece of MDF and add some green polishing compound. Works great for plane irons, chisels, etc.

 

[Hmerkle]

Thanks for all the replies (taking notes). Anyone know where you can get a leather sharpening strop?

Alex,
This is where I got mine;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leather-Str...839?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19f0cb6c8f

Then I took Mike's advice and put it on a backing board (I used spray adhesive) a little bit of honing compound and violia! super sharp blades in 20 or so strokes!

Additionally, when I visited with Bill Clemmons he told me he got some leather from an old weight belt! I found one at a junk shop for next to nothing and cut it up for the jaws in my vise...