Need to know what I am doing to cause this

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lottathought

New User
Michael
I am having a problem with the finish on my last few pens and I do not know what it causing it.

I am getting spots near the edge of the wood that is dull and will not shine up.
I am using the CA glue finish.
It appears to be in the glue itself and I have spent time trying to polish these areas....nothing.

I have no idea if this is common and if it is, I do not know what it would be called so I have no idea how to do a search for the problem.

Any ideas?

Thanks
 

Eaglesc

New User
Eagle
PIf possible could you post a picture of the pen or blank that is giving you the problem?
What species of wood is it?
Are you using accelerant?
What are you using to apply the CA?
Are you cleaning off the blank between sandingg with alcohol or are you using compressed air?
When I first started making pens, I thought finishing with CA was a novel sonccept.
I have since learned though it is clear and polishes up beautifully there is a learning curve I have not mastered.
I have tried CA,Krystal coat, Myladnds three step, Deft, urethanes and a bunch of others.
I have switched my finish of choice to a water based lacquer called Unaxol.
I have often said a monkey could turn a pen but not finish it.
With Unaxol I believe I could train a monkey to finish a pen.
Use the Unaxol sanding sealer and finish, you can get as many coats on as you can put on in a day after waiting an hour between coats.
I MM between coats.
There is no "blush" or dull spots.The product is very forgiving, Moby Dick has excellent tech support.
It is often said that one should never ask to turn back the clock.In my case I wish I had the hours back that I have spent laboring over screwed up CA finishes.
Unaxol is a no brainer.
http://www.mobydicksupplies.com/
They have put together a trial size for penturners but if you get the trial size you will eventually buy the quart.
You'll also probably start using it on your flat work too.
 

MikeH

New User
Mike
It's quite possible that you've actually sanded through the CA. I'm not convinced that CA is the best finish. I think it has it's place on some pens in terms of stablilizing the wood, but there are other finishes as Eagle stated that are easier to use and give you an excellent finish.

Please post some pics if you can.
 

Eaglesc

New User
Eagle
but there are other finishes as Eagle stated that are easier to use and give you an excellent finish.
One of the biggest failures a new pen turners experiences is in finishing.
This is mainly caused by the fact that they want to get it done as quick as possible.
The best investment a new penturner can make is to buy a couple of extra mandrels and busings and be working on more than one pen at a time.
I have a theory as to where your dull spots are comming from.
AS you are sanding you are generating heat.
This heat can be conducted from the head stosk through the M2 adapter and mandrel.
Long after you have applied your CA finish(sealing any moisture in the blank)
You apply the CA, sandand polish it and assemble the pen so you can say to your spouse"Look what I made!"
The next day or even a few ours later the dull spots show up.
I believe this is the moisure migrating out of the blank and trapped under the surface.
This is also common with other finishes such as shellac and lacquer.
What's the fix in that case?
Cigar ashes and mayonaise.Light abrade the surface to release the moisture.
That is not possible with CA.
For those who have been successful with CA stick with it.
After three years I don't trust it.
I spend too much time on the blanks I make to risk the finishes with a product that I have not mastered.
I am very impataient and Unaxol seems to work the best for me.
Even I can't screw it up.
I showed this pen at Johns last saturday and it is also posted here.
I have been asked if it is a CA finish.
I don't know if that is good or bad.
2172017repclassic.jpg
 

DaveO

New User
DaveO
I am having a problem with the finish on my last few pens and I do not know what it causing it.
I am getting spots near the edge of the wood that is dull and will not shine up.

Any ideas?
Thanks

Is it possible that the bushings are preventing you from really polishing right at the end of the pen where it meets the bushing. I have occasionally had some sanding marks appear in that area beause the bushing was preventing my sandpaper from making good contact. Also is this problem happening before you assemble the pen?
Dave:)
 

ebarr

New User
Wayne
I have struggled with the CA finish also.

I know exactly what you are talking about, and have experienced it many times. No matter how many coats or how much sanding I do I will get spots that are highly polished and areas that are dull and no matter what I do I can not get them to shine.

The last few pens I have made I went with a CA finish and did not polish it to a high gloss. That looked pretty good depending on the pen.

I am not sure what the solution is except keep trying. Maybe someone that has luck with the CA can share their success with us.
 

lottathought

New User
Michael
I have thought about the suggestions here and there are a few things that I think I can rule out.

I have only made euro pens and I have started replacing the bushings with the slimline before I start to finish. I did this to make them easier to seperate from the pen parts after the CA was applied.
I am also not shy about polishing near the edges and did so consciously this time due to remembering this problem from last time.

I do not think that I have gone through the CA glue..it still feels like glue and not bare wood....although I am not certain if it would look like bare wood since the thin CA soaked in.

This does not happen at the center of the pen...only on the edges.....that makes me think that it has to do something with my process.

These problems do not occur later on after the pen is done. I see them as soon as I am done with the polishing..and no extra polishing seems to make a difference.
The really odd thing about that is I feel the spot and it feels less slick than the shiny spots. And it is certainly not because I did not polish.

I have wondered if I am somehow heating the CA up too hot on the ends with my sanding....but I am now wondering if wearing through the CA would look like bare wood or something like this....hmmmmmm

My process does not involve alcohol at all..

Usually..I will put on the thin CA..
Then I will sand that smooth..
I will then put on a couple of coats of thick CA..
I will then get the CA smooth and then start the micromesh process..
When I wipe the residue off at each stage, I use a dry paper-towel.


Here is a picture of last nights work. Look near the band in the center and you will see the dull spot.

As monkeys go, this is a frustrated one right now.
I am willing to give something else a try.
I would just want to have as nice a finish as when the CA works like it should.
If I can get that with this Unaxol, then bannanas all around. :-D
 

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SawDustier

New User
Update your profile with your name
Nice looking pen :) From what I can see of the finish it looks exactly like when I sand down too far and remove all the CA, and since you are switching to slimline bushings with nothing there to stop you, you may be sanding a little much near the ends. There is one sure way to tell though. When you have this happen, take a piece of 400 grit sandpaper and just start sanding. You will have white dust where there is CA and you will have wood colored dust where there is none. Can't hurt anything since the finish is pretty much ruined anyway.

I tried many different ways of applying a CA finish and this is what works for me.

Sand to 400 grit then once through the micro mesh
Wipe down with dry paper towel
3 coats of thick CA
Sand with 400 grit (and remember to stop the lathe and sand with the wood grain between grits, even on the coarser mm)
These first coats will fill in any small voids in the wood grain and give you something really smooth to work with.
3 more coats of thick CA
At this point I pull out my super sharp parting tool and gently cut the pen away from the bushings. Also make the tennon for the euro here.
Sand again with 400 grit and then through mm
Finish it off with 20/20 plastic polish

That many coats may sound extreme but it gives you something to sand away and still have plenty left and lots of sanding is required for a great CA finish. I would post a pic of my finished pen but still don't have camera working with this new Vista yet :BangHead:

Good luck
 

DaveO

New User
DaveO
Mike, are you using the Hut Plastic Polish after you are finished with the MM. I have found that that will take away a lot of the strange dull areas, and give the whole pen a nice even gloss.

Dave:)
 

DaveO

New User
DaveO
:eusa_thin :eusa_thin :eusa_thin :icon_scra Are you holding your head to the right, while sicking your tongue out to the left :dontknow:


Dave:)
 

lottathought

New User
Michael
I never could get my tounge to stop sticking to the pen while it was spinning on the lathe.

It was either quit that step or join KISS.
 

Eaglesc

New User
Eagle
The dull spot in the euro with the CB assembled backwards it metal from the bushings.
After you put you tools down put a thin coat of THIN CA on the blank and bushings.
When you sand the CA will cover the bushings and stop the metal from migrating.
Try not to sand the bushings in any event.
When you are "finished", take your skew with the late off and shave the CA off the bushings.
The blank will separate easily.
You can also put a piece of wax paper between the bushing and the blank.
 

lottathought

New User
Michael
I decided to take what I have learned here and I found out some important things.

The suggestions here have been wonderful and have helped a lot.

First off..the idea that I should carve the pen band area down AFTER polishing the finish..very good idea.
If I have a dull spot on the end, no big deal as I am about to turn it out anyways.

Next..I have done a lot of thinking about the over sanding. It is true that I have never had these issues before I started changing for the smaller bushings. Maybe I am sanding too much on the ends..or maybe I am not covering the ends enough with CA glue.

Something else about the sanding too.
As smooth as we think these pens are, I can imagine that there are small dips and highs on them.
My micromesh is in the sheets. I have always like to hold it.at least part of the time...like I was shoeshining when the wood was spinning on the lathe. I am betting this is a common method for people who have the sheets. I am wondering however, if this is causing the CA to wear off in areas.
I thought of this when it hit me how strange my problem seemed to Dave.
I have only seen one pen made..other than my own..and I started to compare what he was doing that maybe I am doing different.
Well..his micro-mesh was different. He has the pads...not the sheets.
Therefore the way he uses them is different.

Well I attempted another pen last night..out of walnut.
I did a combo of the ideas that have been presented.
It came out very nice and best of all...no dull spots.
I wish I had thought to take a picture of it first..but I already gave it away.
My brother has a birthday on Monday and he will be flying back to Doha for 6 more months tommorow.
We had the family picnic today before he left and I was in a little hurry to get it done in time. In the rush, I forgot to take a picture of it.

Even with the success however, I can not help but to notice how some of the more accomplished people here did not have ringing endorsements of CA finished pens on here.
I am not giving up the CA...just yet.....but I am going to give this Unaxol a try. Even if I were to master CA, I like the idea of having a variety in finishes.

I also have not been able to stop thinking about the felt and fabric turned pens.
I would love to know more about this process. How much more difficult is it than turning wood?
I think I want to try this material in the near future.

How does Unaxol do when it is used as a finish over CA?
 

lottathought

New User
Michael
Hey Eagle...
Can you either tell me a little more about the process that you use Unaxol or lead me to a link with more about it?

Are you spraying this on or brushing it?

Can you sand it and polish it with the micro-mesh?

There are several different versions of the sanding sealer. What version are you using?

Are you using any of the support products or just the sanding sealer?

About how many coats do you find is typical?

Thanks
 

dozer

Moderator
Mike
All my pens are done with a CA finish. I have my own way of doing the finish that works well for me but not for others. Just keep trying some different things until you find what works for you.
 

Eaglesc

New User
Eagle
Let me start out by saying that I am not an expert.
Finishing pens is the weakest part of what I do.
I have however read a lot about finishing and have a friend who I consider is a master at finishing pens.That is not to say he would not be a master at finishing anything else, he only makes pens and has been doing it for about as long as I have 3 yrs.
I have a great interest in the woodworking aspect of making pens his strong point is the knowledge of a variety of woods and finishes.
Dc Bluesman(Lou Metcalf) is one of the few people I have heard about who know how to do a Japanese lacquer technique called urishi.
In this method of finishing a lacquer is applied with a birch stick and the lacquer itself is cured in a container much like a reptile cage.High heat and humidity.The process takes 6 months.
After each coat the birch stick is burned and the coat of finish is rubbed out with the ashes.
That little bit of information is meant to give you the idea of his patience.I have none, but am learning.
Another Master I have an e-mail acquaintance with is Russ Fairfield.
He has been very supportive of my work is making blanks and modifications to "kits".
Before you make another pen I Suggest you read everything he has to say about finishing pens or anything els he has written about woodworking.
Get a cup of you favorite beverage and relax and read these two sites.
http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/russindex.shtml
and
http://www.woodturner-russ.com/Pen10.html

Because you have already delved into this abyss you will find some of the information "redundant" but Russ has a way of explaining technical things in a layman's fashion.
I hesitate to address some of your questions because you are going to read a lot of what I have to say on Russes site.That's because I have learned a lot about finishing from him along with Lou Metcalf.
The secret to a good finish is how the pen is sanded.
You made this statement:
As smooth as we think these pens are, I can imagine that there are small dips and highs on them.
If you have prepped the surface properly there shouldn't be any visible to the naked eye.
A good finish acts like a magnifying glass and accentuated imperfections.
Those who stop sanding at 400 or 6oo grit and apply a finish thinking it will "hide" any sanding lines are fooling themselves.
The purpose of sanding is to level the surface and remove imperfections.
the reason we use different grits is to change the scratch pattern of one grit with a scratch pattern of a finer grit.Eventually the scratches cannot be seen with a naked eye.At this point we are polishing or burnishing the surface.
My Micromesh is in the sheets. I have always like to hold it.at least part of the time...like I was shoeshining when the wood was spinning on the lathe. I am betting this is a common method for people who have the sheets. I am wondering however, if this is causing the CA to wear off in areas.
That method will create a lot of heat.
though it is quite possible you are removing too much CA it is more likely you are melting the MM.
What does your MM look like?
DO you have spots that are missing the abrasive leaving just the backing?
If so some where you have run into the situation that the latex from the MM remained on the pen blank.
Can you either tell me a little more about the process that you use Unaxol or lead me to a link with more about it?
Sure no problem.
http://www.mobydicksupplies.com/
Give them a call. I inquired about this stuff and they sent me some to try because they had never heard of anyone using it as a pen finish.
I have been a customer ever since.
Are you spraying this on or brushing it?
I started out trying to spray it but found it was too easy to apply with a paper towel.
Let me Digress.
I had been using Deft Lacquer in spray cans but was unhappy with the over spray, waste and cost of rattle cans.I started using a HF airbrush to apply my Deft.results were good but when I read about Unaxol I decided to give it a try.At the same time Lou Metcalf also tried it as a wipe on finish.
His results were a lot better than my airbrush method so I tried the high build wipe on.
I haven't looked back since.

Can you sand it and polish it with the micro-mesh?
Most certainly.
I have found it so fool proof that I sand in the dark in the morning by hand with the blanks on the mandrel while I have my coffee and cigarettes(breakfast)
There are several different versions of the sanding sealer. What version are you using?
Presently I am trying the satin though I prefer a high gloss.
The satin is polishing up well with MM though.
Give them a call and use what they suggest.
I think I am using m038 d sealer.
Are you using any of the support products or just the sanding sealer?
Just the sealer.You might want to get some reducer but I haven't needed it since I Stopped trying to spray it on.
I have not found a reason to use the hardener.
It needs to be added to the top coat and acts like an epoxy in that it has a pot life of 24 hours.The finish is plenty hard enough and I have not found a reason to use it.
About how many coats do you find is typical?
With my glue ups, there is no typical.
You can however put on a coat an hour lightly sanding with MM between coats.
When you get the appearance you want, Stop.

How does Unaxol do when it is used as a finish over CA?
Why in Gods name would you want to screw around with something that works better than CA?
If you want to experiment knock your socks off.I started using Unaxol because I wanted something superior to CA, easier to apply, less expensive and repeatable on all woods.
Try a CA finish on ebony, cocobolo,and bocote in one afternoon.
CA also does not finish over metals either.

I also have not been able to stop thinking about the felt and fabric turned pens.
I would love to know more about this process. How much more difficult is it than turning wood?
I think I want to try this material in the near future.

I suggest you try turning a purchased acrylic or PR blank first.
Though my felt and denim pens are less expensive they do require time.
Some feel that the savings in time out weigh the expense of the blank.
The felt pens do require the successful use of a CA finish because it not only makes the blank along with the felt it is also the finish.
There are things like voids to deal with.
Surface preparation is the main thing.

How much more difficult is it than turning wood?
I suspect there are many who turn acrylic pens because there is no "finishing involved.
For me I like the challenge of making my own blanks.
Anyone can buy a hunk of plastic and make a pen that looks like any ones else's plastic pen turned in their shop.The world has too many plastic pens as it is.
There is however a shortage of cloth pens.:eusa_danc
 

lottathought

New User
Michael
Thanks for the great response Eagle.
I have already started going through those links.
And I am thinking that you are right. I have been letting too much heat build up when sanding. I do see a few marks on the MM.

Actually though, I was asking a little different question about the type of Unaxol you were using. Looking back, I am thinking I was not asking it very well though.

I was curious...the type that you are applying with a paper towel..
Is it the brush on type or the spray on type?
Are you using the cabinet type, floor type or high build type?
I started thinking of reasons why you might be using any of these..
(maybe the spray on to give you more work time.....maybe the floor type due to the suspected durability.....maybe the high build type due to the need to build up before sanding...etc)

Thanks
 

Eaglesc

New User
Eagle
Thanks for the great response Eagle.
I have already started going through those links.
And I am thinking that you are right. I have been letting too much heat build up when sanding. I do see a few marks on the MM.

Actually though, I was asking a little different question about the type of Unaxol you were using. Looking back, I am thinking I was not asking it very well though.

I was curious...the type that you are applying with a paper towel..
Is it the brush on type or the spray on type?
Are you using the cabinet type, floor type or high build type?
I started thinking of reasons why you might be using any of these..
(maybe the spray on to give you more work time.....maybe the floor type due to the suspected durability.....maybe the high build type due to the need to build up before sanding...etc)

Thanks

I originally started with the spray but it clogged up the same sprayer I used for Deft.
I then tried to wipe on with a paper towel but it took too many coats for the desired results.
I have switched to the high build and am EXTREMELY happy with it.
Even the satin builds to a beautiful gloss, three coats works but for the WOW factor you can always add more.
This picture doesn't do the finish justice.Maybe someone who was at WG's can attest to the shine.
2172017repclassic.jpg
 
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