Need some roofing suggestions

[farmerbw]

This isn't really DIY since I'm pretty certain that I'm not doing the work, but I'm in need of a solution to a roofing problem.... so here goes.

Long story short a newly renovated home has had a leaking roof since it was built and after several attempts by the builder and one other "patch" by another local roofer hasn't fixed the problem almost 2.5 years later. The leak is where the standing seam metal roofing of an eyebrow window meets a shingled roof. Water stands at the junction and eventually seeps into the house, across the ceiling of the loft below it, down the support wall, and now down to the ceiling and wall of the floor below it. I'm guessing it keeps going down at this point, but now visible damage is evident on the lower floor yet. It's a pretty high roof and I've not been able to get out on it myself and look at it in person for various reasons. A roofer recently used a drone to take pictures of the area to show where the water is standing and penetrating. I wish I had seen it myself, or a picture, cause even I can look at it and tell it shouldn't have been installed the way it was and can't believe the many roofers that have looked at it haven't said the same.

Any way here's the picture so everyone knows what I'm talking about...




So as you can see there's no way for the water on the standing seam roof to drain down it's slope so it just sits there. You may also note that the one of the roofers, not sure which one, tried to resolve the issue with some type of sealant where the seams meet the shingles and that failed. I'm thinking there should be some sort of transition flashing where the roof lines meet to allow water to drain down the slope of the eyebrow roof section. A different roofer is saying that the metal roof should be removed and laid with the seam the opposite way in order to drain. I think that's maybe a bit extreme and only opens up the possibility of a similar issue where the roof meet and some sort of flashing or channel is needed. Can standing seam roofing even be laid that way on a curved roof like this? I don't think I've ever seen it, but that certainly doesn't mean it isn't possible... :dontknow:I've found a few pictures of transition flashing, but nothing quite like this. Anyone have any experience with something like this and can suggest a solution that might not involve removing a whole roof section? Or maybe some better pictures than I'm finding since I'm not really sure what to search for other than "metal to shingle transition flashing"? I'm hoping there's a better solution than tearing off a whole section of roof, but if it's required then I guess that's what we have to do.

Thanks for taking a look and I appreciate any suggestion.

B.

 

[Skymaster]

Where is the valley? That junction should be a VALLEY. METAL ROOF is wrong. metal roof MUST be cut back a good foot or more, the junction must be a V valley. the shingles will end on one side of valley, metal on the other allowing water to flow freely off roof. That whole section has to be peeled off to bare deck, water damaged sheathing replaced, re papered, preferably with ICW Not felt, than create the valley flashing, re roof. NO cheap fast way out of this. IF THE BUILDER DID NOT KNOW THIS he should be jailed

 

[Jeff]

Brian, I'm absolutely clueless about this but I'm always curious (I had to find out what is standing seam metal roofing and what's an eyebrow window).

I can't get oriented in your picture. Is the eyebrow window to the right and out of the picture so the metal roofing is sloping from right to left and dead-ends at the shingles in the center of the picture? The water is running down hill from right to left? Maybe a rough sketch or picture of the roof layout would be helpful.

Who in the h... designed such an awful roof layout system and then expected the roofers to make it work without leaking? The whole thing looks messed up to my eye. Are there other buildings with the same design/leakage issues in this building complex?

Maybe PhilS will chime in with better guidance.

 

[SteveHall]

It looks to be completely flat at the top of that eyebrow. So you have potential leakage at two spots: 1) The metal is rolling water back under the asphalt shingles, and/or 2) the standing seam roof joints are holding so much water that it is floating up into the joints. The symptoms will be the worst with ice and snow since it can sit in this valley and dam the rain and melting snow above.

Metal roofing isn't designed for less than 2:12 slopes unless you buy rolled over seams (commercial grade, obviously not this roof), and even then maybe only down to 1:12 or so. So whoever put this in violated the product manufacturer's specifications and recommendations for this product's application and installation. (And they obviously knew or cared nothing about flashing.) Find the manufacturer's info on this product and prove to the contractor/installer that it was done wrong. Make them re-work it on their dime per one of the following. (I know this is an unlikely outcome, but some contractors actually care about their reputations and will try to make things right when shown the evidence.)

There is this temptation to fix roofing problems from above, but the problems are always at the bottom of the stack. Fixing them always requires starting over at the bottom. So any solution will require pulling off several rows of the neighboring asphalt shingles and the metal so that the fix is properly flashed beneath and 24" beyond any joint or seam. It would help to see a few more pictures for context, but I'll guess from what I can see at a few possible options in order of increasing cost:

1. Pull off the metal roofing, put *commercial grade* *parapet grade* membrane flashing under the metal and back up the roof. This membrane is NOT "peel-and-stick." It is designed to handle ultra high heat from metal scorching the metal above and won't ooze apart. Nothing else will work. You won't find this at a home improvement store, but any decent commercial roofer can get it by Grace or Henry. Make sure it goes way up the roof (18" vertically higher). It also has to be flashed back over the shingles below it. Cover the entire eyebrow. This becomes the effective roof in this area, and the asphalt shingles put back over it with the metal are merely aesthetic.
   
2. In a similar vein, if the roof sheathing is damaged, you could put in a membrane coated plywood, such as by Zip Systems. Use their roofing product (for high heat) and their flashing products. I would recommend additional flashing though, because the plywood joints will move over time.
   
3. Pull off the metal roofing, re-frame it to 2:12, and re-roof it with similar new snap-together metal roofing product. This could look pretty awkward for an eyebrow window if not done sensitively, but you can find examples in wood and slate shingles all over the web.
   
4. Pull off the metal roofing, re-frame it to 1:12, and re-roof it with better, rolled seam metal roofing.
   
5. Pull off the metal roofing, and put back commercial (or copper) metal roofing in the opposite direction so that the seams arc over the eyebrow and allow water to flow off the edges. Proper flashing is even more critical at the valley here, but it can be done with membrane or old school copper valley flashing where the sloped roof meets the eyebrow.
   
6. More drastic measures involve re-framing the roof to a different shape or putting on an entirely new roof with exposed copper valley flashing.

To repeat, ALL these solutions assume considerable amounts of quality flashing product and installation. This has been available for hundreds of years, so the problem is not the information, but a contractor that can economically accomplish it.

Done correctly, this will last at least 25 years but likely much longer. Done poorly, it might not last past the warranty, which sounds about like what you have.

You are close to me, I'd be glad to come and look closer if it would help. (PM or use my contact info in my signature.) There are certainly dozens of contractors and roofers around NCWW and Raleigh that know better, too.

 

[farmerbw]

Thanks for the responses. I only have one other picture that came from the drone and I'll add it for a little more perspective.

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Jack, I was telling my wife before dinner that there should be some valley/flashing showing between the 2 roofs and not what is there... :BangHead: The builder doesn't know anything about roofing, which were his words to me at one meeting, and apparently neither does the roofer he used for this job. There's no reason a newly constructed roof should be leaking from day one and still leaking over 2 years later. Of course now there's lots of sheet rock work and painting to be done inside from where water has infiltrated.

Steve, WOW!!! That's quite a lot of information to digest and I greatly appreciate it. I also appreciate the offer to take a look at it, but unfortunately the roof is at the NJ shore which is why I haven't really been involved much with chasing getting it fixed. I wish I had gotten out on the roof back during the summer when the builder was there to look at it. Unfortunately I've got some inner ear issues and sometimes experience vertigo at heights. So I thought it might not be a good idea to climb around on a 3 story roof without a safety harness. :no: I should have asked the builder to take some pictures and I would have known before 2 more of his hacks came out to "repair" the problem that it was worse than he was making it out to be. I'll have to re-read your comments a few more times to get a better grasp on what our options are so we can try to determine a course of action. The roofer who provided the drone pictures is working on a estimate and work proposal. He's the one suggesting turning the metal roofing seams the other way, but I wasn't sure if that's a viable solution. I'll have to wait and see what his proposal is and compare it to what your suggestions are. I'll also have to look into the mfr specs on installation of the metal roofing and also if the roofer is even certified to install it. Getting the builder to cover the proper repairs is the plan, but it needs to get fixed sooner rather than later. So we may be finding a competent and product certified roofer to do the work and hope for the best in getting paid back.

Wow, still a lot to digest and I'm sure I'll have more questions after reading back through everything. Thanks again to everyone and anything else that might be gleaned from the additional picture would be appreciated. :icon_thum

Oh Jeff, yes perspective is hard in that one pic, the second may make it clearer. Yes, a odd roof design done by an architect in PA I think.

B.

 

[junquecol]

Standing seam sheets butt against shingles, which is a NO,NO! Each rib forms a dam to impede water flow. The standing seam sheets and shingles MUST be removed, and standing seam sheets shortened by about three inches. Next valley needs to be lined with "Weather Guard, then a METAL valley added. I prefer a sheet of 5-V tin with outer ribs removed. The remaining V will be upright in center of valley. After it's laid down, on shingle side add another course of Weather Guard so it laps over the tin. This course needs to extend over tin to where shingles will end. This will seal nail punctures from shingle nails. When you finish, you should show about a 6-8" wide metal valley. The roller who made roof sheets can most likely roll you a 5-V in same color stock. Roof leaks are a real pain, as sometimes where they show up isn't where the leak is. Water runs downhill, except by capillary action. Ask most builder what this means, and they won't have a clue.

 

[Joe Scharle]

If the builder is actually a builder (meaning licensed), then you should contact the NC General Contractors Board in Raleigh.
I've never seen a roof done like this and even new roofer should recognize this error.

 

[Skymaster]

capillary action; yhe ability of water being sucked up into material thru the internal pores of a material :}:} Hence the reason one ALWAYS MUST maintain at least a 3/4" gap above the flashing to the bottom of the siding

 

[farmerbw]

If the builder is actually a builder (meaning licensed), then you should contact the NC General Contractors Board in Raleigh.
I've never seen a roof done like this and even new roofer should recognize this error.

Unfortunately the house and builder are at the NJ shore and as I've been finding out it seems they do things differently there. I am however looking into what they have licensing wise there and seeing what avenues that might reveal. I'm not overly optimistic on easily finding someone to perform the proper repair work since at least 3 other "roofers", including the one that did the "patch", have been up on the roof and looked at this and none of them have pointed out that the installation is done incorrectly... :nah: I'll have a better idea of where we're at once I see some work proposals from the new companies that looked at it.

B.

 

[farmerbw]

Standing seam sheets butt against shingles, which is a NO,NO! Each rib forms a dam to impede water flow. The standing seam sheets and shingles MUST be removed, and standing seam sheets shortened by about three inches. Next valley needs to be lined with "Weather Guard, then a METAL valley added. I prefer a sheet of 5-V tin with outer ribs removed. The remaining V will be upright in center of valley. After it's laid down, on shingle side add another course of Weather Guard so it laps over the tin. This course needs to extend over tin to where shingles will end. This will seal nail punctures from shingle nails. When you finish, you should show about a 6-8" wide metal valley. The roller who made roof sheets can most likely roll you a 5-V in same color stock. Roof leaks are a real pain, as sometimes where they show up isn't where the leak is. Water runs downhill, except by capillary action. Ask most builder what this means, and they won't have a clue.

Good information as well Bruce, thanks. I'm actually familiar with capillary action and I'll agree that this builder probably for sure doesn't know what it is. I'm not even sure the roofer he sub'd to would know what it is either.

B.

 

[junquecol]

Upon further review, looks like water coming down shingles is going UNDER roof sheets, plus because of standing seams "ponding" on roof at seam. I now think valley should be made with either copper or lead, as these can be "job site formed to conform to roof conditions.

 

[Skymaster]

copper lead is hazmat

 

[Jeff]

Capillary action is like a paper towel soaking up water but the water movement is uphill to some degree instead of laying flat on a counter top.

It's none of my business but what is your interest in fixing this 3rd floor New Jersey property albatross?

 

[Phil S]

WOW this is wrong on so many levels. Hopefully the builder and roofer have found new occupations more fitting with their skill sets - maybe like setting up umbrellas at the beach or selling taffy and t-shirts.
But now you have to fix this mess.
If this were mine to fix, I would:
Tear off the metal and the asphalt shingles enough to expose the damaged sheathing
Replace the metal with a single layer EPDM white membrane (Mulehide is the best product) and lap it up onto the regular roof
Replace the shingles, stopping short of the valley by about six inches

Good luck

 

[farmerbw]

WOW this is wrong on so many levels. Hopefully the builder and roofer have found new occupations more fitting with their skill sets - maybe like setting up umbrellas at the beach or selling taffy and t-shirts.
But now you have to fix this mess.
If this were mine to fix, I would:
Tear off the metal and the asphalt shingles enough to expose the damaged sheathing
Replace the metal with a single layer EPDM white membrane (Mulehide is the best product) and lap it up onto the regular roof
Replace the shingles, stopping short of the valley by about six inches

Good luck

Phil, unfortunately they're both doing the same jobs currently and probably hacking up someone elses new home or renovation job! :no:

I was able to get my hands on the full building plans in pdf format and it cleared up a lot of things. The plans specifically show that the metal roofing was supposed to be installed with the seams going the opposite way of how it was installed and showed the valley layouts which weren't done. It also specifically called out underlayment materials, valley material type/material (as well as size), and required overlap of said materials. It also contained a whole lot of information regarding the eyebrow roofs construction requirements and other things that I don't really understand as a layman. :dontknow:

We have one estimate to tear off both metal roofs and how ever many rows of shingles it takes, install the proper underlayments, install the standing seam the correct way, and have proper valleys at the transitions. There's another guy coming today or tomorrow so hopefully we'll have something to go on....

B.

 

[nn4jw]

Sounds like you need a good lawyer since the plans were clearly not followed and the job was incorrectly done.

Phil, unfortunately they're both doing the same jobs currently and probably hacking up someone elses new home or renovation job! :no:

I was able to get my hands on the full building plans in pdf format and it cleared up a lot of things. The plans specifically show that the metal roofing was supposed to be installed with the seams going the opposite way of how it was installed and showed the valley layouts which weren't done. It also specifically called out underlayment materials, valley material type/material (as well as size), and required overlap of said materials. It also contained a whole lot of information regarding the eyebrow roofs construction requirements and other things that I don't really understand as a layman. :dontknow:

We have one estimate to tear off both metal roofs and how ever many rows of shingles it takes, install the proper underlayments, install the standing seam the correct way, and have proper valleys at the transitions. There's another guy coming today or tomorrow so hopefully we'll have something to go on....

B.

 

[farmerbw]

Sounds like you need a good lawyer since the plans were clearly not followed and the job was incorrectly done.

Yup, unfortunately that'll probably have to happen as well. Right now our focus is on getting the leak(s) fixed so it doesn't damage the structure below any more than it has. There's already lots of sheet rock damage to ceilings and walls below and it's only getting worse with every storm...

B.