Need Assistance

[dupont6480]

Now that the exterior on my 16x40 shop is almost complete (siding and roofing shingles this weekend) I need recommendations on what to use/do for the following:

1. Insulation - walls and overhead (2x4 studs /OSB walls) R-factor, what kind etc
2. Lighting - how many, what kind, manufacturer, location, wattage, etc
3. Receptacles - both walls, ceiling. How far apart/how high etc.
4. Paint - white paint on OSB both walls and ceiling to aid in lighting
5. Ductwork - I plan on having separate interior roomfor DC and AC. Ducting can run in overhead if needed. Any good place or site to read on how to install etc. Dust will be directed outside into bin. No need to go through filter. Presently have 1.5 hp JET 1100 DC

Details of my shop are DUPONT6480 Workshop started.

Thanks again for your outstanding inputs and assistance!

Tim

 

[Bill Clemmons]

Now that the exterior on my 16x40 shop is almost complete (siding and roofing shingles this weekend) I need recommendations on what to use/do for the following:

1. Insulation - walls and overhead (2x4 studs /OSB walls) R-factor, what kind etc See my comments on your other thread.
2. Lighting - how many, what kind, manufacturer, location, wattage, etc I used 8' T8 florescent fixtures that hold 4, 48" tubes each. After laying out placement of key work areas (TS, bench, router table, jointer, planer, etc.) I placed lights strategically to provide optimum light for those areas. Along the walls I also installed track lighting to focus on specific task areas.
3. Receptacles - both walls, ceiling. How far apart/how high etc. First, check local code. I have a duplex, 3 prong receptacle every four feet along my walls, w/ a GFCI as the first receptacle on each circuit (code requirement). All general use receptacles are at 48" above the floor. There are no more than 8 receptacles per circuit. Standard wiring for a 15a circuit is 14/2 w/ ground. Personally, I would run nothing less than 12/2 w/ ground. That way you can always switch to a 20a breaker if you need it. The extra cost is minimal at this stage.
4. Paint - white paint on OSB both walls and ceiling to aid in lighting If you've never painted OSB, it is like a sponge. Start w/ a good primer. Then I would use a satin rather than a gloss. Satin will reflect light well, but not have too much glare.
5. Ductwork - I plan on having separate interior room for DC and AC. Ducting can run in overhead if needed. Any good place or site to read on how to install etc. Dust will be directed outside into bin. No need to go through filter. Presently have 1.5 hp JET 1100 DC This is just one of many, many sites to find info on designing a DC system. Here's another one w/ tons of info.

Details of my shop are DUPONT6480 Workshop started.

Thanks again for your outstanding inputs and assistance!

Tim

Bill

 

[Glennbear]

I cannot add much to what Bill has already said. After reading his post I wondered if he was lurking in the shadows watching as I finished my shop. :gar-La;

 

[Bas]

Now that the exterior on my 16x40 shop is almost complete (siding and roofing shingles this weekend) I need recommendations on what to use/do for the following:

1. Insulation - walls and overhead (2x4 studs /OSB walls) R-factor, what kind etc
2. Lighting - how many, what kind, manufacturer, location, wattage, etc
3. Receptacles - both walls, ceiling. How far apart/how high etc.
4. Paint - white paint on OSB both walls and ceiling to aid in lighting
5. Ductwork - I plan on having separate interior roomfor DC and AC. Ducting can run in overhead if needed. Any good place or site to read on how to install etc. Dust will be directed outside into bin. No need to go through filter. Presently have 1.5 hp JET 1100 DC

Details of my shop are DUPONT6480 Workshop started.

Thanks again for your outstanding inputs and assistance!

Tim

Lighting: You need more than you think. I have ~600 sq.ft., and I have 18 T8 fixtures, each with two 4' bulbs (For my shop, using the shorter fixtures made more sense). There was an article in FWW a while ago about the necessary lumens per square foot. Of course, this is just ambient lighting, you'll probably want some task lighting as well. As for brand, there are many options. I went with the cheaper Lithonia fixtures from Home Depot. So far so good, no problems after 2 years. I'm sure the ballasts will go eventually, but I can then replace them with higher quality ones as I go.

Receptacles: I have a block of four receptacles (2 duplex) every 4 ft., 50" off the ground. Each block is on two circuits, so I can plug in a shopvac on the left and a router on the right and not worrying about overloading anything. Like Bill, I ran 12/2 with ground. For the 220V equipment, I ran dedicated circuits to each location. That's not required, but I had the space in the panel to do it.

Another option is to create a multiwire branch circuit. That's two hots, a neutral and a ground. This gives you the option at any given location to have a 220V outlet (using the two hots) or a 110V outlet (using one hot and the neutral). I did this in one spot in my shop, the closet where I house the compressor. I might upgrade it to a 220V model one day, and this gives me the flexibility. Perhaps superfluous, but make sure you put those on a double pole breaker.

Some people advocate running 10 gauge wire everywhere, in case you want to use some heavier duty equipment in the future (e.g. a 5 HP table saw). I think that's overkill. It costs more, and it's more difficult to pull (especially when using surface mounted conduit). Also, I find that stranded wire (commonly used for 10 gauge) is more difficult to make connections with than solid. The only location where I ran 10 gauge was for the closet where my dust collector is. The bigger cyclone units draw a lot of power, so you may want to plan for that.

Dust collection: This is a topic all by itself. Basically, go with the shortest run possible (going overhead vs. along the walls), no sharp turns, 6" pipe. Metal is lightweight, lots of fittings available at HVAC supply houses, and no static buildup that can zap you. But the edges are sharp and you may need to recrimp fittings. PVC is easy to handle, pipe is typically cheaper than metal, but it's a little heavier, the fittings cost more, and typically need to be mail ordered.

 

[ScottM]

You have rec'd great input. Here are a few of my comments since I just a shop too... Mine is 22x32.

1. Insulation - I went with 6" in ceiling and 3" in the wall
2. Lighting - I have 10 3 bulb fixtures obtained from PhilS They are hung in two rows running down the length. I have each row on different switches plus a third switch for ceiling fans. I also have a few other lights on select tools
3. Receptacles - mine are roughly 6' a part on the walls and I alternated them on different circuits. All my 110 outlets are 20 amp. Make sure to include a good mix of 220 outlets. Since my ceiling is almost 10' high I only added a handful of ceiling outlets.
4. Paint - Yes white paint on OBS really helps. I rolled it. I used a primer and a top coat. I went with cheapo paint.
5. Ductwork - I think that collector is kinda small to cover a shop that size. Put the heavy dust generators (planer, wide belt sander, joiner) closest to the unit. Install a lot of blast gates.

 

[ehpoole]

Some people advocate running 10 gauge wire everywhere, in case you want to use some heavier duty equipment in the future (e.g. a 5 HP table saw). I think that's overkill. It costs more, and it's more difficult to pull (especially when using surface mounted conduit). Also, I find that stranded wire (commonly used for 10 gauge) is more difficult to make connections with than solid. The only location where I ran 10 gauge was for the closet where my dust collector is. The bigger cyclone units draw a lot of power, so you may want to plan for that

I'm gonna have to chime in on this one :wink_smil

Having pulled more than my fair share of #4/0 copper, I can't possibly fathom describing #10 stranded copper as being "more difficult to pull". If your conduit has been properly designed and consists of reasonable run lengths (say, no more than 20-30ft between boxes or LBs) with no more than the code recommended bends and fill then one can generally PUSH a #10 stranded copper wire through the conduit without even bothering to go to the trouble of pulling the cable (which would consist of first running a string or metal/fiberglass tape to fish the wire through). (Note: If Bas were discussing solid #10 romex, then that stuff is a bear to work with, but not individual THHN or THWN #10 stranded copper typically used in conduit installations which is a pleasure to work with.)

As for connections with #10 stranded copper, if you purchase the proper receptacles you can simply insert the wire and use the receptacle's builtin wire clamps to secure the stranded wire. If you purchased the more common screw terminal receptacles then all you need do is crimp a 'yellow' insulated spade lug to the wire and then insert the spade terminal under the receptacle's screw and tighten.

The real advantage of running #10 copper on your 20A circuits (esp 120V) is that it helps reduce voltage drops during periods of heavy load, allowing your equipment to better maintain speed and power under heavy load. Also, on circuits that are heavily utilized at reasonable amperages the #10 wire will also save you some lost wattage (vs. #12) that would otherwise have gone to waste heating the lighter gauge wiring (i.e. a parasitic loss). When you are talking about a heating or cooling circuit (e.g. a circuit with a decent duty cycle), for instance, upsizing by a single gauge increment will more than pay for the increased cost of the wire over the life of the AC/heater system through a corresponding reduction in parasitic losses. In the case of an air compressor circuit, the #10 wire will deliver more amperage to the compressor motor on startup, allowing the compressor motor to reach optimal RPM more quickly, thus reducing excess heat buildup in the starter windings and capacitor.

In my shop, the lighting circuits are all #12 copper (lighting is a steady, non-variable load), the 120V perimeter receptacles are mostly #10 copper and the 240V receptacles are all #8 copper (which allows me to trivially upgrade my 20A 240V receptacles to 40A 240V receptacles should the need arise). You may not need that level of adaptability, but in my opinion the extra cost of the wire pales in comparison to the investment in time, labor, conduit, receptacles and boxes, circuit breakers and so forth.

When designing your lighting circuits, don't forget to include 3-4 emergency lighting fixtures (or 2 emergency ballasts) in your design if you regularly work in your shop after dark (or have no windows). When the power goes out a shop is a very dangerous place to wander around blindly -- especially with power tools that may still be in the On position because you could not find their switch. The few dolllars spent installing and maintaining emergency lighting are cheap insurance compared to the the accident that could occur if power suddenly comes back on as you are blindly fumbling for the Off switch. Your shop should have enough emergency lighting that your eyes can adapt to the darkened room within 1 second. Focus the best lighting on your most dangerous power tools (e.g. make sure your tablesaw is well lit so that you can ensure your hands do not cross the blade's path and you can quickly find the Off switch). When properly installed amongst your lighting fixtures, you should be able to almost instantly move about and function during an outage without hesitation and never have to risk fumbling for that Off switch!

Design Note: The emergency lighting fixtures (or ballasts) should be powered from the same circuit breaker as your primary shop lighting. The emergency lights can reuse the neutral and ground wires already present in your lighting fixtures, but you will need to run a dedicated, unswitched, hot wire to power the emergency fixtures since they require power 24/7 to charge the batteries and detect a power failure.

I feel very strongly that this subject is often overlooked in most hobby workshops, but I encourage everyone to give strong consideration to this subject when designing their workshops.

 

[erasmussen]

For lights CFL'S are the way to go, nowdays, the fixtures are cheap < $1.50 at the borg, so you can put as many as you need where you need them, and can change the wattage easy.
I have 3 strings of them on three switches, so I can have good light, better light and lots of light.
It cost me a lot less then putting the old type fixtures would have.

 

[Charles Lent]

Two duplex outlets mounted in double wide boxes every 4' along the walls is the way to go. I still run out of outlets in the most convenient place sometimes. Make sure you put them above 4' off the floor or above any workbench or cabinet that you may put along the wall. Keeping them above 4' high lets you store sheet goods along the wall without blocking the outlets. Ceiling outlets are good, but you won't need as many. 12 gauge wire is all you will need for 20 amp duplex outlets if the run length will be less than about 100'. 10 ga doesn't buy you much unless the length will significantly exceed 100 ft. You may want to have several different groups of outlets on separate breakers like Bass and I have done. I ran 3 conductor 12 ga cable and connected each pair of duplex outlets to alternating hot leads. Doing this with 3 conductor wire (plus ground) and using a 2 pole breaker, or at least hooking the hot leads to breakers that are on alternate power is the best way to go because it eliminates the need for a as the single one can be shared. I also try to keep the number of duplex outlets on each string to 8-10. My ceiling 120 volt outlets are only single duplex style and I only placed them wherever I thought that I might need them. Most of the time I only have a couple of extension cord reels that are mounted on the ceiling and plugged into them, and a laser above my table saw, but my shop is much smaller than yours. You will likely want more of these than I have.

My 240 outlets were placed wherever I knew that I would need them, but each is on it's own dedicated line from the panel. The 3 hp Unisaw, the 5 hp air compressor, and the air conditioner are each on their own dedicated wire and breakers, but I have several 30 amp 240 volt receptacles spaced along the walls that are not presently being used. This allows me to connect these outlets to the same breaker or each to it's own breaker as my needs change.

My lighting consists of 4 double lamp 8' fixtures (8 lamps total) with each running across the narrow direction of my 14' X 26' shop and spaced about equally apart. They have no reflectors, and depend on the ceiling for light distribution. Every other fixture is connected to one of 2 switches so I can have either low or high level lighting. I also have several task lights on drill presses, etc. This has been very satisfactory and I have not wished that I had done this differently.

I put 6" insulation in the ceiling and 3" in the walls and I have had no problems keeping it comfortable with a 2 ton (24,000 btu) window style heat pump mounted through the North end wall.

Charley

 

[dupont6480]

Bill,
Thanks again for all the great advice. I have decided to go w/ R19 in the walls and looking at blown insulation (R44) in the overhead.
Tim

 

[dupont6480]

Bas,
Great information! Thanks for taking the time to answer. Your assistance is greatly appreciated. I am actually looking at an older PM66 that is 5hp. Will I need to use 10 gauge if I purchase this?
Thanks,
Tim

 

[dupont6480]

Scott,
If I am not going to direct the dust collected thru the DC filter and directly outside the building into a container; what size DC do you recommend?
I was wondering about ceiling fans. Are they recommended in a woodshop or are they a hindrance due to the air blowing dust in your eyes etc?
Thanks for all the great information and recommendations.
Tim

 

[dupont6480]

Ethan,
Thanks for the detail of information provided. I will discuss all these points with my friend the electrician. This site is great! I am able to build the workshop and benefit tremendously from all the experts at the same time minimizing mistakes/errors.
By the way; the run from my house to the workshop is 250 feet. Luckily, there are not obstructions in the way (trees, buildings, rocks etc) and it will be straight with no bends.
Thanks again,
Tim

 

[dupont6480]

Earl,
I have to ask you; where or what is the borg? Thanks for the info on CFLs.
Take care
Tim

 

[dupont6480]

Charley,
The run will be 250' out the shop. Was your ceiling 6" insulation blown or matting?
Thanks for all the detailed recommendations.
Tim

 

[ScottM]

Earl,
I have to ask you; where or what is the borg? Thanks for the info on CFLs.
Take care
Tim

BORG - The Borg are villains on Star Trek: The Next Generation TV series who vow to assimilate all. Originally meant to describe Home Depot ("Big Orange Retail Giant"), now used more generally to describe all big box stores whose predatory marketing threatens the smaller competitors. Lowe's is often called the "Blue Borg". Others are simply called Big Ole Retail Giants depending on which side of the mason dixon line your originally from.

 

[Bas]

I am actually looking at an older PM66 that is 5hp. Will I need to use 10 gauge if I purchase this?

Yes, you will need 10 gauge wire to run your PM66, and use a 30A breaker.

 

[McRabbet]

BORG - The Borg are villains on Star Trek: The Next Generation TV series who vow to assimilate all. Originally meant to describe Home Depot ("Big Orange Retail Giant"), now used more generally to describe all big box stores whose predatory marketing threatens the smaller competitors. Lowe's is often called the "Blue Borg". Others are simply called Big Ole Retail Giants depending on which side of the mason dixon line your originally from.

One added point for newer members -- if you see an acronym like IMHO or IIRC or BORG, just click on the General Information drop down and check for the meaning in the NCWW Lexicon!

 

[ehpoole]

Ethan,
By the way; the run from my house to the workshop is 250 feet. Luckily, there are not obstructions in the way (trees, buildings, rocks etc) and it will be straight with no bends.
Thanks again,
Tim

You have not said what size panel you will be installing in your shop, but at 250' you will definitely want to upsize the conductors to reduce voltage drop over that distance. I would also suggest using #4 copper for your ground to reduce resistance to ground (and ground loops between house and shop if a ground rod is added for the shop) -- especially important if your shop ever takes a hit from lightning. Due to the distance of your shop from the main panel I would also suggest a surge breaker be installed in the shop panel (and one for your house panel if you don't already have one). They provide primary surge protection for the entire house and help to protect equipment in the event of a damaging surge (though you will still want to use point-of-use surge protectors for valuable electronics, which constitutes a second line of defense).

Assuming you will be installing a typical 100A panel for your shop, I would probably opt for #1 or #0 (aka #1/0) copper (or #1/0 or #2/0 aluminum) with #4 copper (or #3 aluminum) ground for the run between house and shop. This will greatly reduce voltage drop over the length of your run and help prevent the annoyance of blinking shop lights every time the A/C, compressor or other large tool powers up. You will want to run 2" PVC conduit allowing for much easier pulls over that length, you'll need a lot less lubricant and sweat and tears since you will be at the limit of a 250' fishing tape.

On the lighting question: With respect to CFL fixtures, they are indeed much cheaper but typical CFL bulbs tend to max out around 27W (vs. 64W total for a 2-tube 4ft F32T8 fixture) and are much more of a point-source type light which tends to result in sharper and more pronounced shadows unless you have many of these well distributed throughout the room. My preference is for 4ft fluourescent fixtures as they provide a more diffuse light with minimal shadows and reflect very well off of white ceilings and walls allowing for use of the cheaper non-reflector type fixtures. (I am also more prone to headaches from bright point-sources of light.) My 520sq.ft. shop has eight 2-tube 4ft fixtures (all F32T8 tybe bulbs) for primary lighting distributed evenly throughout the shop. I also have a dedicated 2-tube 4ft fixture with full-spectrum bulbs located directly in over of my wood storage area which is of the polycarbonate-shielded security style fixtures so that impacting the fixture with a board does not damage the bulbs. I have two additional 2-tube 4ft fixtures along a wall where a counter/work area is located which illuminate that area or can be used for additional shop lighting. There are also two older F40T12 2-tube 4ft fixtures which were orginal to the shop/garage which can be used for additional lighting if needed. However, normally all the lighting I need comes from the eight 2-tube 4ft F32T8 fixtures, though I'm 39 and you will typically need more light as you age. I've seen many recommendations geared towards older woodworkers which suggest the optimal lighting level for a shop my size would be twice what I have (that is, sixteen 2-tube 4ft F32T8 fixtures). For a shop, opt for low-temperature electronic ballasts since workshops can get quite cold in winter.

I don't know what your ceiling height is, but if it is low enough that you are likely to impact the fixtures then you may wish to invest in security or Class II type fixtures which typically have either a polycarbonate shield or heavy glass with metal protective cage to protect the bulb(s) from damage in the event of an impact. My ceilings are 10-1/2ft so I only used such a fixture over my wood storage area where I am likely to impact the fixture while moving wood in or out of storage. For personal protection in the event of a damaged fluourescent tube I shroud each tube in a lightweight polycarbonate tube (avail. from HD and Lowes) that holds a broken tube together and contains the broken glass. This protects the occupant from the usual shower of broken glass when/if a bulb is impacted and shatters. These polycarbonate tubes are quite inexpensive and I use them on all unprotected fluourescent tubes.

HTH

 

[Don Sorensen]

This may be a knee-jerk reaction on my part, but I'd stay away from aluminum wiring. Over time and use, it will expand and contract, becoming loose under the connection screws. That may have been an old house wiring problem, however. I spent my Christmas vacation one year going through my family's house, tightening all the screws on switches, outlets, and any other connections I could isolate. It is a big house.

 

[ehpoole]

This may be a knee-jerk reaction on my part, but I'd stay away from aluminum wiring. Over time and use, it will expand and contract, becoming loose under the connection screws. That may have been an old house wiring problem, however. I spent my Christmas vacation one year going through my family's house, tightening all the screws on switches, outlets, and any other connections I could isolate. It is a big house.

I don't advocate aluminum for general wiring nor for short runs to subpanels or appliances (I have a strong preference for copper). However, when you are looking at a large-gauge feeder for a 250' run, that's 750ft of #1 or #1/0 copper (plus another 250ft of #4 copper ground) and that adds up fast. It's one thing to purchase 100ft of #1/0 copper, but 750ft is a whole nother. It is also worth keeping in mind that most of this run is ultimately burried underground in conduit. An aluminum feeder properly treated with an oxygen inhibitor and properly torqued with a torque wrench in a subpanel is a very reliable connection. Just make sure a torque wrench is used because the recommended torques can be very close to the point where one strips the hex socket of the subpanel's or breaker's connection lugs (esp. aluminum lugs). By comparison, old aluminum wiring used for general purpose electrical was typically torqued haphazardly with a screwdriver rather than a torque wrench and, sadly, often times with receptacles and switches that may not be compatible with or properly treated for aluminum. Perhaps most importantly, while many electrical novices will often change out their own switches and receptacles -- without knowing that aluminum requires special consideration -- most feeder lines are installed by electricians or those very experienced with electrical and whom are much more likely to properly install an aluminum feeder and it is very rare that a novice will tinker with these wires (just the mere size of these wires is enough to scare off most novices).

For the OP's purposes, #1/0 or #2/0 aluminum (and a #3 aluminum or #4 copper ground) will suffice and save him a good deal of money while still avoiding any excess voltage drop over the length of his run. Just ensure that oxygen inhibitor has been applied to all aluminum connections and the connections properly torqued at each end.