Need advice joining wide boards

[Jeff]

Bill is on the right track-Nakashima style tables.

http://www.dumonds.com/custom_rustic_dining_tables.htm

So maybe that glue line rip doesn't need to be perfectly jointed and those imperfections become design features. A tinted, high-quality epoxy might be better than TBII or III for this application. Wood movement is an issue but maybe the butterfly inserts help to control that. ???

http://brokenriverjoinery.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/glue-up/

 

[scsmith42]

Fellas
I need some advice. I need to join narrower slabs to make tabletops. I am having trouble getting two edges true enough to clamp and glue.



View attachment 10828View attachment 10829





These will be 12in to 24in or so wide, 8/4 to 10/4 thick, and up to 16 ft long. Obviously I cannot run these across my joiner, too long and heavy.
So I have a couple of ideas to get an edge good enough to glue, and would like input from those of you with gluing
experience.

Idea #1 Festool 75 circular saw with guide, if anyone has one, I would love to bring a couple of slabs for a demonstration. I cannot buy one without knowing it will do what I need.

Idea#2 1/2 in arbor router ( and straight edge guide) with straight bit to clean up on uglier cut with my current skill saw. I think a smaller arbor bit would flex???

I plan to glue up these tops then plane and sand on my Lucas mill.

These are the two options I have come up with, and I am not even sure if either will work.

I am sure the right idea is somewhere in this forum base of knowledge.
Thanks so much.

Frank

Hi Frank. It's good to see you posting. I have successfully done what you are trying to do.

A Festool track saw will definitely produce a glue line rip. I've found that the single length rails are best, as opposed to joining two rails together. The standard Festool blade is a crosscut blade; your cuts will go much faster with the special rip blade that Festool sells (about 2x as fast). This is only needed if you are doing a lot of long rips though; if you're not doing a lot of them I wouldn't worry about it. I've used the Festool Track Saw method to glue up quite a few 8/4 black walnut planks and it works well and can produce almost invisible joints.

An alternative method that is also quite accurate is to use a Festool router with the guide rail, and a 1/2" spiral upcut end mill in the router. I've successfully joined 8' long 4" thick slabs for Roubo Workbench tops by this method. The end mill that I use is a Niagra Cutter brand, PN EDP# 52167. I recall that I purchased it from Enco. I could not find Whiteside or other straight cut router bits that were long enough for a 4" thick slab, but you can use them for thinner slabs. This method works equally as well as the track saw, but it's a bit slower. It's the best option when you need to edge joint a slab that is thicker than the TS75 will cut.

As we both know, the sawmill will not produce a cut straight enough for a glue line rip. Neither will the Makita 16" circular saw (I have tried...) although they can serve to make a preliminary cut if you want to finish off with a large handheld jointer plane. Either one of the Festool methods is dead accurate though and can equal the quality of an edge joint produced with a thinner board and a traditional jointer. Titebond III has a slightly longer open time than Titebond II and is a good choice for glue.

For uneven edges, it's best to make some wedges in advance so your clamps have parallel surfaces to clamp against. Also, using cauls to keep your glue up flat helps a lot too. There are some simple techniques that you can use to make cauls quickly; let me know if you'd like me to share.

Best of success to you with your glue up.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Jeremy Scuteri]

... The end mill that I use is a Niagra Cutter brand, PN EDP# 52167....

Scott,
What is the difference between an "end mill bit" and a regular spiral router bit?

 

[scsmith42]

Scott,
What is the difference between an "end mill bit" and a regular spiral router bit?

Not much from a user standpoint. End mills are designed for milling metal, and optimized for cutting a tougher material at a slower tip speed. They are both typically manufactured from high speed steel (HSS). My experience in using a spiral end mill is that the cut it leaves on the edge of a board is in the same league as what a spiral upcut router bit leaves.

 

[F Seaman Unique Woodcuts]

WOW !
Thanks for all the feedback.
A lot of good ideas here, which is what I was expecting. You guys have given me a lot of options to think about.

Scott, I am going to try laying one on the other and ripping with the Lucas. I won't be too disappointed if it does not work after reading your post. I also thought about laying them edges together, and recutting the kerf. Like Blake said, I would like to do it with tools I already have. I need to come see your operation someday, if the Boss ever gives me a day off! Wives are tough !

Thanks again to all, I will post pics here as I progress.
Frank

 

[Jeff]

This will be an interesting experiment in progress.

I didn't realize that the Lucas mill could be used in both the horizontal and vertical sawing mode. So maybe a "rough" rip is a good start. Would a thicker blade help to dampen vibration and flexing or is that not an issue?

I couldn't find the end mill bit (EDP #52167) at the Niagara Cutter site-"did not match any items". I'm not looking to buy one but just curious. The ones that I looked at had 1" shanks and cutting lengths of 4-6". My DeWalt router needs a 1/2" shank max. ??? I'd like to search 1/2" shank diameter & 4" cutting length but those criteria don't shop up.

 

[blakeyon2asd]

I'm no expert on the way saw mills work but the one that members of my family have up in Wilksboro that my great uncles and my grandfather used to run it doesn't really matter whether it be a band saw mill or a circular saw mill depending on which one you want the live edge to be kept mill the other sides down. Then position the log back in to pace with the live edge not on the bottom but in a horizontal position to the left or the right with a band saw mill, or position the log so that the the live edge is on top of the log for the circular saw mill. It was good that you pointed out that the blade might flex but honestly he will still be better off trying to hand plane some kerf marks and slight flex than trying to buy a bunch of stuff which will just aggravate him until the point in which he just runs it through the mill. What he's talking about doing is pretty simple no need to make things anymore complex than it needs to be. If he's still wanting to run individual slabs through that's possible to it takes more time to set them vertical against the backer/head blocks so that the band saw can make it's pass but it's still an easy task.

 

[scsmith42]

This will be an interesting experiment in progress.

I didn't realize that the Lucas mill could be used in both the horizontal and vertical sawing mode. So maybe a "rough" rip is a good start. Would a thicker blade help to dampen vibration and flexing or is that not an issue?

I couldn't find the end mill bit (EDP #52167) at the Niagara Cutter site-"did not match any items". I'm not looking to buy one but just curious. The ones that I looked at had 1" shanks and cutting lengths of 4-6". My DeWalt router needs a 1/2" shank max. ??? I'd like to search 1/2" shank diameter & 4" cutting length but those criteria don't shop up.

Jeff, here is the part number at McMaster Car for the end mill: 2883A35

It cost a little over 50 dollars.

The Lucas is similar to my Peterson. Both mills have a saw head that swings from horizontal to vertical. There is actually a lot of science behind the blades; they are typically not perfectly flat when stationary. Circular sawmill blades are designed with either a shallow cup in them or have a tension ring rolled into them. The purpose is to provide some tension for when the blade is running at high rpm. The process is called Hammering or Rolling. Blades w/o this tend to crack or develop a flex at the tips when at operating RPM's.

 

[scsmith42]

I'm no expert on the way saw mills work but the one that members of my family have up in Wilksboro that my great uncles and my grandfather used to run it doesn't really matter whether it be a band saw mill or a circular saw mill depending on which one you want the live edge to be kept mill the other sides down. Then position the log back in to pace with the live edge not on the bottom but in a horizontal position to the left or the right with a band saw mill, or position the log so that the the live edge is on top of the log for the circular saw mill. It was good that you pointed out that the blade might flex but honestly he will still be better off trying to hand plane some kerf marks and slight flex than trying to buy a bunch of stuff which will just aggravate him until the point in which he just runs it through the mill. What he's talking about doing is pretty simple no need to make things anymore complex than it needs to be. If he's still wanting to run individual slabs through that's possible to it takes more time to set them vertical against the backer/head blocks so that the band saw can make it's pass but it's still an easy task.

Blake, the swing blade mills that Frank and I operate are a bit different than the band and circle mills that are commonly found at sawmills. One of the biggest challenges that Frank would have using his sawmill is that there is no way to easily hold the board in place for milling. He would need to partially mill a large log, and then affix the board being edged to the top of the partial log. Doable, but he would still have to follow up with a hand plane to get the kerf marks out, as the mill blade will not leave a fine enough surface for a glue line rip.

Besides, what guy doesn't want an excuse to buy more tools????

 

[blakeyon2asd]

I don't think any guy doesn't want an excuse to buy new tools I could go buy a plethora of tools but I don't because I can do pretty much everything I need to with what I have. If he's running a swing mill why not set it up like you just spoke of? I mean if he's planning on making a bunch of these he's going to have to figure something out better than a track saw even that would be more out of the way than making a log jig set up like you said. No matter what he does in this situation he's going to be doing a good bit of hand planning whether he goes with a festool tracksaw or just using his saw mill. I was just saying and I think he kind of agreed with me that if he can do it without going out of his to get the job done that it would be the fastest easiest way to do it. If he really wants a track saw he's going to get one but it's still not going to make that big of a difference on something like this.

 

[blakeyon2asd]

Also I just now thought about it since you said that about milling another log just head to the local big box store and pick up two railroad tie for about twelve bucks a piece that gets rid of half the problem and it's light enough it can be handled by one person. Put them side by side together, get some heavy duty rubber like floor mats as long as it is non slip set the board on top clamp on and get to cutting.

 

[scsmith42]

You out sound like a pretty sharp guy, and I think that if you ever saw or used a swing blade mill you would quickly grasp my points. The setup time can be a killer, and sawmills by their nature are not precision instruments.

. If he's running a swing mill why not set it up like you just spoke of?

It is a question of speed and accuracy. The sawmills that you are familiar with have dedicated log carriages and easy ways to adjust for taper, etc. Swing blade mills do not. Log setup with a swing blade mill requires much more time than with circle or hydraulic band mills. Even if some type of custom holding device was fabricated, a Festool track saw would still do the work in less than 1/2 the time if not faster. If your Grandfather produced any type of volume with his circle mill he most likely had a stationary edger with it. Even though he could edge boards with his circle mill, it would still be much more productive to use an edger. Same with a band mill. And for Franks application, it's the same concept. Another benefit of the track saw is that you can adjust its placement in a few seconds. Not so with the sawmill approach.

. No matter what he does in this situation he's going to be doing a good bit of hand planning whether he goes with a festool tracksaw or just using his saw mill.

That has not been my experience. A Festool track saw is capable of producing a glue line rip without the need for subsequent hand planing. I do it all the time with mine and the joints are all but invisible. I own a Mattison straight line rip saw, which is the type of machine that large furniture plants use for making glue line rips in a production setting. The Festool track saw produces a finer finish, albeit at a little slower rate. If I have several thousand linear feet of lumber to edge I will use the Mattison. For only a few boards I will opt for the track saw, especially if they are short (less than 6').

If you're ever in the Raleigh area and want to see some of this equipment first hand just send me a PM or email.

Scott

 

[blakeyon2asd]

Thanks for the invite I'll have to keep you in mind I'm always out that way making deliveries to customers for some of the bigger stuff. I would love to see one of these mills in person from what I've seen in videos and hear from older guys they are pretty good for decent output for stuff like 2x4s and 4x4s because you can make a cut swing it then finish the board. I think he'll just have to figure this one out on his because everyone here has posted good ideas of how he can approach this. I think this thread probably made cutting the boards harder than he thought it would be. lol But I've never used a festool track saw so I can't speak for accuracy but I've heard they make some of the best tools in the industry. I guess if he goes that route he can always line it off and follow up with the track saw. Either way I hope he has a forklift for picking that table up.

 

[scsmith42]

It's always great to meet a fellow NC Woodworker, so be sure to plan a visit if you're headed west. We are about 90 minutes from GBO, in between Apex and Sanford.


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[Jeff]

Thanks Scott. I found it-gotta love McMaster Carr for many things.

 

[Jeff]

I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion. Lots of ways to skin the cat with +/- accuracy but 16' l is a honker imo.

Frank is inclined to have a go at it with the Lucas so it'll be interesting to follow his progress. He'll tell us whether or not he's disappointed and needs phase 2 of the plan. ???

I'm curious so I started nosing around the Festool site just for a few eye poppers-which I expected. A basic system will set you back about $600-700 and the vertical depth of cut is 2.75" max. Ahhh, yes I want a continuous track up to 16' instead of piecing together several tracks. Throw in another $550 for that! That glue line rip just ripped my wallet!

Maybe an imperfect Nakashima style rip is a better fit for my design and wallet?

 

[JimD]

While not ideal, two roughtly 8 foot tracks joined together might be more practical. Perhaps you could even borrow one of those to give it a try. I paid less than $600 for my DeWalt with 56 and 103 inch tracks. With one more track, it could be done. A DeWalt can use a Festool track, by the way, but a Festool apparently won't work on a DeWalt track. So you could also look at a DeWalt saw with a 16 foot Festool track - if that was less expensive. But a track saw solution will be around $1000 unless you borrow it.

 

[F Seaman Unique Woodcuts]

I am going to work on it tomorrow guts, stay posted.
If it gets too aggravating I will haul it all to Scott and let him school me !
Frank

 

[thesource]

Frank,
The TS 75 will do what you need done.
I have one and also a 16' guide rail.
Bring your slabs some Saturday, and I'll show you how it works.
Rick

 

[jazzflute]

Blake,

You should definitely take Scott up on his offer. His a very sharp guy who has some very big and specialized equipment that is hard to find or view in operation by the average woodworker. I've had the privilege of helping him mill some lumber for me and I learned a lot.

In fact, the next time I have him do that for me, I hereby publicly offer to selflessly give up my opportunity to assist him and make that opening available to you to take in my place. It will be a sacrifice, but no sacrifice is too big when it holds an opportunity for someone else to learn and grow.

What can I say? I'm just a giver.

In fact, if you would like to learn how to load ~750 bd. ft. of freshly milled and kiln-dried poplar into a 14' box truck, we could schedule a trip to Scott's place very soon.

K