Kapex dust collection oddities

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Ok it is better than my Ridgid, but not my much. So I did some testing.

When hooked up to my Fein/CV cyclone at the rubber boot it pulls about 1.7M/s. Terrible. Open port on the vac is off the scale for my meter.
Hooked up my Ridgid vac, no cyclone, clean standard filter. It managed 2.2 M/s. Really sad. I would expect adding a cyclone and HEPA bag/filter kit it would be very similar.
Hooked up my 5 HP Clear Vue 1700 to ONLY this port. Again about 1.7 M/s. It is high volume, low lift so not really surprised.

Now, hooked up the Ridgid to blow into the port, MASSIVE blast and read almost 6 M/s at the boot and a blast from all around the blade. So, besides the port being tiny, clearly there are shape design issues. Has anyone pulled one apart to see what silliness they might have done? Square edges etc? Heck, that is more effective in anti-revision than the old VW headers!
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
I got about 0.1 M/S out of it by smoothing a sharp edge in the top port.
It is an odd design with the rear moving port. I do not see under what condition the port moves or what function splitting the flow does. There is not really much else to be done inside. Looking at the specs for various extractors. Options of serial or parallel.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Mess. Most systems list CFM but not BAR. ( or convertible numbers)
Some, like Oneida, don't list much of anything.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Well, if it was great, I would not be trying to make it better. :) It is better than the Ridgid I had.

Collecting more specifications on dust extractor vacs. The 3M and Mirka look to lead the pack over Festool, Fein, and Makita looking at CFM and lift. All pretty close though. Browsing the WEB, some suggest one can run vacs in parallel and gain volume through highly restricted ports. Others say it does not work. Running in series will likely over-spin the leading motor as it is not seeing enough load. Well Record Power entire setup is running in parallel with 1, 2, or 3 motors. Oneida has plans showing mulcible Dust Deputies and vacs. For the price, the difference in the Record is they are continuous run. Shop vacs are not, but the above extractors are.

Champ of shop vacs seems to be the Ridgid 1800. A pair of them with HEPA kit, a plywood box, and a pair of cyclones might be the budget leader with top performance around $600. Really noisy though and you may need to run them off two branches ( or wire up a 220 and split the phases.)

As far as specs, well shop vac makers should be in Congress. As an example, Ridgid 1640 ( I have one) claim "Peak HP of 5. Well, 7.8A with 100% efficiency and PF of 1, which you never get, is 1.25 HP.

As far as lift, the vacs run in the 90 inches of water, the big cyclones run around 10. So it is pretty clear the big cyclones can't such through a 20mm hose and the vacs are not going to pull 1000 CFM no mater what hose.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
I actually have a 2 inch ID hose squished down on it, or 3 feet, then into a 2 1/2 for 6 feet into the cyclone.

Bought a Centec 30' hose setup and of course, it fits everything EXCEPT Festool. At least I can get all around the shop to clean up now.
 

Rwe2156

DrBob
Senior User
I couldn’t imagine having 3 shop vacs running at once - well I can 😳😳

Project Farm did a shop vac review. The Bauer from Harbor Freight overperformed. All my shop vacs are Rigid. The larger ones are not quite as noisy. The small Rigid one I collect my table saw guard with is a screaming banshee 😳😳.

You can split hairs on stats but for hand tools I think any decent dust extractor would be more than you need. My Festool works fine for everything I do with it. An extractor certainly makes the experience a lot nicer just for the noise reduction! I wish they weren’t so expensive I‘d have one dedicated to my 6/12 sander and my little 12” bandsaw.
 

chris_goris

Chris
Senior User
As youre aware, there is no good way to easily and repeatably extract dust unless its in a equally vented cavity. I cant imagine a wood working tool we use that can be farther from that reality. That said, chop saws are probably the worst offenders for medium sized sawdust in the shop. Some things you just have to live with and clean up after, IMO. Festool has some of the best (Domino, tracksaw and sanders) , if not THE best dust collection for portable handtools on the market and Im sure they did their level best with the Kapex as well.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
I couldn’t imagine having 3 shop vacs running at once - well I can 😳😳

Project Farm did a shop vac review. The Bauer from Harbor Freight overperformed. All my shop vacs are Rigid. The larger ones are not quite as noisy. The small Rigid one I collect my table saw guard with is a screaming banshee 😳😳.

You can split hairs on stats but for hand tools I think any decent dust extractor would be more than you need. My Festool works fine for everything I do with it. An extractor certainly makes the experience a lot nicer just for the noise reduction! I wish they weren’t so expensive I‘d have one dedicated to my 6/12 sander and my little 12” bandsaw.
Yes, noise is a game changer. That is why I love my Fein Turbo II. Using my 3M ROS, I don't need my muffs. And yes, of the quality extractors, ( Festool, Mirka, Makita, Bosch, Fein, 3M) there is not a huge amount of difference. The 3M does still top the list a little over the Festool, but the Fein is not far behind and less than half the price IF the specifications are not BS. So it really is more of which brand is your favorite. Festool has a lot of fanboys to their credit due to darn good tools. I tend to be a Makita fan but pick individual tools entirely on performance if I can pay the price.

I got a Centek kit so I have adapters for my Bosch, 3M, Makita, and mouse sanders with excellent results. Works OK on my Makita and Ridgid routers. I need to try it on my benchtop disk and belt sanders. They have 2 1/2 ports and restricted flow so it may work far better than running to the big CV. It would simplify my CV ducting, but maybe I should do a 3 inch PVC system for the vacuum. I much prefer a vacuum for cleaning the floor over a floor sweep. Floor sweeps can't get the dust that settled under machines on the other side of the shop!

Reviewing the FAQs on ClearVue, they mention with miter saws, the design is so terrible the only solution is both a high lift on the port and a hood going to a big high volume system. I was slowly coming to that conclusion.

We still come down to incompetent design in the first place. Fine for job-site carpentry as all you need to do is not make a mess, but the Kapex is marketed as a woodworking tool and not so much as a portable carpentry tool. When I say incompetent design, just run your finger inside the port and feel the sharp square edges. I smoothed mine out and it increased the flow. With molded parts, there is no excuse. The port should be more like 2 inches. 2 M/s is barely going to pick up dust that hits the rubber boot. There may be something to do inside the upper shell to pull more from the back half of the blade than the front. At the Festool price-point, I should not be having to rethink their design! The sealed trough below the ZCI is as stupid as it gets. It should either be open so you can clean below, ducted for collection. or at least latched in for no-tools. I have had thin slivers drop in already requiring tools to take the insert out and clean. Incompetent. The saw does cut netter than my Ridgid so I'll give it that. Otherwise, it would have gone back.

I tested the lift of the CV as installed, gates closed, lift is 4 inches of water. Seems low as I was expecting more like 8, so I'll tape up the blast gates and see if that is where the leaks are. Everything else is taped up. I knew it was low as with all ports closed, it does not collapse my 6 in inch corrugated duct section. I do need to get one of the relief valves from Stockroom Supply for my Fein/cyclone as I did collapse my bucket once.

When looking at shop vacs and some of the testing, you need to look at specific models. To say HF is better than Ridgid, OK, he does very good testing, but which HF, which Ridgid. There is a huge difference between models in a line. Bauer 2252E-B16 seems to be their biggest, current spec about the same as the Ridgid 1800 and $20 cheaper. Probably a decent deal IF you could get a HEPA filter and bag conversion. I did not see one. Bauer lists NO performance specifications. The Ridgid does have a 2 1/2 exit port so you could fit a WYNN canister on the exhaust. If you can't filter .5 or less microns, it is useless.

PS: If you think a modern Ridgid vac is noisy, give a 30 year old Craftsman a run!
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
You need both lift and volume. So incomplete specifications which was the point I was making. We can convert between measuring systems. Bar, inches, Pascals whatever. We also need to calculate in system velocity to be sure we maintain the dust in the stream and it does not settle out. So three critical parameters for system design. I only have an aerometer so I measure velocity and calculate volume. My Magnehelic is only 15 inches so I can't measure the high lift value. A 200 inch slack tube is a bit unwieldly with a 9 foot ceiling.

Example: My CV1700 flows about 1200 CFM but maximum list is about 4 inches.
My Fein vac flows only about 150 CFM but can pull almost 100 inches.
 

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