Japanese weapon project: joinery question

[TenguWoodwork]

Hi NCWW,
I'm making a QS White Oak training bisento (ancient Japanese anti-calvary weapon) for a friend. I've made one before but this one has a unique twist: essentially I need to be able to ship it at a shorter length (to Colorado) for simple assembly on the other end. To be clear, this would only need to be assembled once on their end. My current solution is basically a tongue and groove with pegs. A blade section with a 18" tang/tongue and a 5ft handle with 18" groove. At present the blade piece is 1" thick. When I make the handle it will be 3 pieces laminated together. Pictured below is a rough design to help.

I'd love advice on a few points:
1) Is an 18" tongue is long enough
2) Diameter and number of pegs
3) Placement of the pegs
3) Peg material. Want to stay with wood, but curious if same or different density/species makes a difference
4) Any other advice is welcome

I'm lucky enough to have MrFixit71's shop and advice (I mean, he IS my dad) at my disposal but extra input is always appreciated. Thanks everyone!

 

[Mike Davis]

With glue and clamps that should work fine.
Most any hard wood that is very straight grained should work for pegs, again use good glue.

 

[Raymond]

Welcome back, Kelly. You say you want to stick with all wood but when the two pieces are joined together, will the joint be wrapped with a decorative cloth? Will the pegs be glued in? Is this piece going to be a display piece or a piece used in (non-impact) demonstrations?

Answer those questions and you may find the answers you are looking for. And, of course, there are others on here who will have more experience than I do and can give more advice.

 

[chris_goris]

Is this to be used for some purpose?

 

[TenguWoodwork]

This is for training, not display. It may have some occasional impact but no hard perpendicular hits (for many, many reasons)
No cloth, hoping to stay with wood, glue, and tung oil.
The current plan is to have them glue the tongue. Didn't think about direct application to the pegs.
Hope that answers your questions. Thank for taking a look!

 

[chris_goris]

This is for training, not display. It may have some occasional impact but no hard perpendicular hits (for many, many reasons)
No cloth, hoping to stay with wood, glue, and tung oil.
The current plan is to have them glue the tongue. Didn't think about direct application to the pegs.
Hope that answers your questions. Thank for taking a look!

I would use something metallic, probably brass for the pins. The shear loads on wood would be too high for even swinging it around. And then if it should make contact, the results could be lethal!.

http://usaknifemaker.com/knife-handle-parts/handle-hardware/corbys-rivets-loveless-others.html

 

[Gofor]

Peg diameter should be approximately 1/3 the height of the tang. If you are thinking it will strictly be held by the pegs, I would go with five: 1st one centered 1 1/2 " from end of tang with 3" between center points on the remaining 4 leaving 1 1/2" before the blade starts.

If you are thinking the recipient can spread glue on the entire tang mating surfaces, then I recommend liberal use of tape on any non-glue surfaces. I would dry fit the pieces, and then put 2" wide clear packing cellophane tape on the top and bottom. Squeegee it out with an old credit card, etc, to get out any air bubbles.Then use a razor knife (box cutter with new blade, etc) and slice down the edges of the tang, so when the parts are disassembled, you have tape on both pieces, After gluing and installing the pegs, let the glue residue set until it is about soft rubber consistency, and then shave it off the tape with a knife. Then remove the tape after further drying. This will result in very minimal glue needing smoothing down so as not to cause blisters during use. When gluing the peg, just put glue on the first third, and let the act of driving it in spread the glue over the remainder. If gluing the entire tang, then three or four pegs should be sufficient. You could possibly put on the tape before shipping, but don't know how well it will fare if it hits extreme temp changes, and how hard it would be to remove after a week or so in shipping.

I am assuming you are going to orient the growth rings so they run vertical as shown in the blade picture for both blade and handle.

White oak if thoroughly dried would be fine for the pegs. Again, orient the growth rings vertical (in line with the direction of the force that will be applied in use).

That's how I would do it, but must admit I have never made an item like this.

jmtcw

Go

 

[KenOfCary]

I would probably use Brass for the pegs and hand-rivet them on both sides, but that might destroy the authenticity you're going for. I'd also worry about shearing the blade portion off if it weren't wrapped with something. Guess its the engineer in me that wants to over-engineer for strength versus aesthetics.

With that long handle there is a lot of force applied to that joint if an impact occurs.

 

[chris_goris]

Hi NCWW,
I'm making a QS White Oak training bisento (ancient Japanese anti-calvary weapon) for a friend. I've made one before but this one has a unique twist: essentially I need to be able to ship it at a shorter length (to Colorado) for simple assembly on the other end. To be clear, this would only need to be assembled once on their end. My current solution is basically a tongue and groove with pegs. A blade section with a 18" tang/tongue and a 5ft handle with 18" groove. At present the blade piece is 1" thick. When I make the handle it will be 3 pieces laminated together. Pictured below is a rough design to help.

I'd love advice on a few points:
1) Is an 18" tongue is long enough
2) Diameter and number of pegs
3) Placement of the pegs
3) Peg material. Want to stay with wood, but curious if same or different density/species makes a difference
4) Any other advice is welcome
View attachment 22406
I'm lucky enough to have MrFixit71's shop and advice (I mean, he IS my dad) at my disposal but extra input is always appreciated. Thanks everyone!

I hope whoever swinging this is very strong! at 1" thick ,that blade will be about 55# based on guessing a width of 4", that is guessing on the scale of your picture

 

[TenguWoodwork]

Hi Chris,
You're right about the 4" width. I haven't weighed it, but I'm pretty sure the blade is definitely not 55lbs (based on walking around the shop with it in 1 hand). I've already cut out the major pieces and clamped them together. Although it has some heft, the soon-to-be-owner is strong.
Here are a few more reference photos for the project. First one (guy stand with bisento upright) was my reference for proportions of shaft to blade, second (guy in fighting stance) was another version with thick handle, and third (Bisento next to another piece) is one I previously made.

 

[TenguWoodwork]

After reviewing my previous build (see photo) I made the weapon with a 2" shaft. My current project is designed with a 3". Given all the other specs staying the same, think this will still work with a 2" shaft?​

 

[Jeff]

The UPS and FedEx shipping guidelines suggest that you could send the finished bisento in one piece.

Don't glue the blade tang to the shaft but use 3 wood dowels or 3 binding posts (1/4"-20).

https://www.mcmaster.com/#90835a108/=16a5ap6

2" vs 3" diameter shaft. Which size feels better to the user? Maybe not a circular shaft but elliptical for a better grip?

 

[chris_goris]

Hi Chris,
You're right about the 4" width. I haven't weighed it, but I'm pretty sure the blade is definitely not 55lbs (based on walking around the shop with it in 1 hand). I've already cut out the major pieces and clamped them together. Although it has some heft, the soon-to-be-owner is strong.
Here are a few more reference photos for the project. First one (guy stand with bisento upright) was my reference for proportions of shaft to blade, second (guy in fighting stance) was another version with thick handle, and third (Bisento next to another piece) is one I previously made.

Hahahaha I assumed it was steel..... my bad

 

[KenOfCary]

I also assumed a steel blade - wood looks much safer to handle - and should be fine glued and pegged.