Help! What kind of wood is this?

[mpnmatthews]

Hey folks, first time poster here. I like what I see so far but I need some help.

Bought a dining table and chairs (6) from a second-hand furniture store here in Concord. The owner said that the table was solid wood, and that it was an antique. Table has a nice medium color but a finish that I hate. I'll be asking for advice on the best way to refinish the table later, but for now, can anyone help me identify the species of wood? The guy who sold it to me said that it was walnut, but I'm not sure... Any help? Pictures to follow.

 

[Hmerkle]

Mike - looks like cherry to me - any makers names? (Broyhill, Drew, Thomasville)

If yes - call them and see if the 5233-543 give you anything...

I Googled it, but got nothing!

 

[SubGuy]

Portions of it look "walnutish" Some portions look cherry, I lean toward cherry based off of grain structure I can see. Only true way to tell is to see the unfinished wood. You really need to see cross grain and end grain to make a good determination. If I were you, I would use a paint scraper on a small inconspicuous place and reveal fresh wood.
Additionally, I doubt that is, what I would consider, an antique. Vintage.... probably. I would venture to gather from the style, techniques and markings, it is no older than 1940's and not earlier than 1980's and made on the east coast. Buts that just a hunch.
Can you get a picture of the legs and feet? Closer pics of the fasteners and look for tool markings on the underside.

 

[Hmerkle]

Portions of it look "walnutish" Some portions look cherry, I lean toward cherry based off of grain structure I can see. Only true way to tell is to see the unfinished wood. You really need to see cross grain and end grain to make a good determination. If I were you, I would use a paint scraper on a small inconspicuous place and reveal fresh wood.
Additionally, I doubt that is, what I would consider, an antique. Vintage.... probably. I would venture to gather from the style, techniques and markings, it is no older than 1940's and not earlier than 1980's and made on the east coast. Buts that just a hunch.

Thanks Zach - you made me look again -
1. The latch on the table is NOT antique...
2. the slides are metal - not wood - that will help date it - I am guessing 60's maybe - belive someone much smarter than me - I am pretty sure 40's- 50's would have wood extensions.
3. I think I see veneer on the skirt - is that right?
4. Is there any distinguishing information on the bottoms of the chairs?

All that said - Mike it is still a beautiful table and chair set and well worth investing some time and effort into making it what you want - question - why don't you like the finish? The pictures may be masking it, but it looks to be in pretty good shape...

 

[jlimey]

I'll break the trend and say mahogany or similar. I base this on the few boards with ribbon figure.

 

[SubGuy]

Oh yeah, it is a great table! Solid wood that is built well always is worth buying if not priced too high.

Veneer isn't a good indicator of date. Veneer has been documented used by Egyptians. I think metal slides have been around a long time too in higher end furniture. I found this: http://www.watertownhistory.org/articles/watertowntableslide.htm so we know they had equalizers then.

 

[mpnmatthews]

Wow, thanks guys for the replies so far. I took some more pictures for your viewing pleasure... Maybe more clues to this mystery. More close ups of the tops and feet of the legs, the chairs, the grain, and the finish.

Mike - looks like cherry to me - any makers names? (Broyhill, Drew, Thomasville)

If yes - call them and see if the 5233-543 give you anything...

I Googled it, but got nothing!

Hmerkle, there are NO makers marks or manufacturer plaques - not on the table, not on the leaf, and not on any of the chairs. It may have been made by angels lol

Portions of it look "walnutish" Some portions look cherry, I lean toward cherry based off of grain structure I can see. Only true way to tell is to see the unfinished wood. You really need to see cross grain and end grain to make a good determination. If I were you, I would use a paint scraper on a small inconspicuous place and reveal fresh wood.
Additionally, I doubt that is, what I would consider, an antique. Vintage.... probably. I would venture to gather from the style, techniques and markings, it is no older than 1940's and not earlier than 1980's and made on the east coast. Buts that just a hunch.
Can you get a picture of the legs and feet? Closer pics of the fasteners and look for tool markings on the underside.

SubGuy, thanks for those observations. They make sense. I'll have to get out a scraper tomorrow and dig in. Look for more pics. The legs and feet, I got... Kinda non-descript but I have watched enough Antiques Roadshow to know that they could convey a lot of information.

And I REALLY hope it's cherry.

Thanks Zach - you made me look again -
1. The latch on the table is NOT antique...
2. the slides are metal - not wood - that will help date it - I am guessing 60's maybe - belive someone much smarter than me - I am pretty sure 40's- 50's would have wood extensions.
3. I think I see veneer on the skirt - is that right?
4. Is there any distinguishing information on the bottoms of the chairs?

All that said - Mike it is still a beautiful table and chair set and well worth investing some time and effort into making it what you want - question - why don't you like the finish? The pictures may be masking it, but it looks to be in pretty good shape...

Hmerkle:

1. Agreed.
2. There are manufacturers marks on the slides... Watertown Slide, Watertown Table Slide Corp, Watertown, Wisconsin... Ring any bells?
3. The skirts are definitely veneered... The pic that I posted of the leaf tipped me off to that.
4. Nope, nope, nope.

I'll break the trend and say mahogany or similar. I base this on the few boards with ribbon figure.

jlimey, I changedy mind... I REALLY want it to be mahogany... I have an affection for Victorian things and if it's mahogany, it's a match made in heaven for me.

Can't wait to see what information we can turn over!

 

[mpnmatthews]

Thanks Zach - you made me look again -
1. The latch on the table is NOT antique...
2. the slides are metal - not wood - that will help date it - I am guessing 60's maybe - belive someone much smarter than me - I am pretty sure 40's- 50's would have wood extensions.
3. I think I see veneer on the skirt - is that right?
4. Is there any distinguishing information on the bottoms of the chairs?

All that said - Mike it is still a beautiful table and chair set and well worth investing some time and effort into making it what you want - question - why don't you like the finish? The pictures may be masking it, but it looks to be in pretty good shape...

So the finish is definitely grossing me out. Feels gummy, dirty... A rub with a slightly damp paper towel and the towel gets so dirty. The finish is finicky... It's a dining room table but you can't put a glass on it without a ring. Any moisture brings out a haze. Neither my wife nor I can figure out how to clean it at all... So we just spot it here and there. I have two sons... A two year old and a two month old, and we need to have something that we can clean and is waterproof and doesn't have that certain germy ick factor lol.

I think the finish may be varnish... Don't know. I do know that fingernail polish remover (acetone) DOES dissolve it. I put a towel soaked in acetone on the table and went to pick it up a couple hours later and the towel was stuck to the table, like the finish melted. I ripped the towel up and fibers from the towel were imbedded into the finish. Yuck...

 

[ehpoole]

If you want to get a ballpark age on the table, look up the patent application on the slide mechanism at www.uspto.gov (Patent and a Trademark Office).

 

[srhardwoods]

I'm leaning more towards a Mahogany type, maybe a philippine mahogany, or what they call a philippine mahogany. The last couple pictures show a open grain

 

[chris_goris]

I'm leaning more towards a Mahogany type, maybe a philippine mahogany, or what they call a philippine mahogany. The last couple pictures show a open grain
View attachment 12324

I agree… I think its some sort of mahogany… the finish could be shellac if its leaving water marks.. One thing to remember about "antiques" , they only have to be 25 years old to be considered antiques… So I guess Im a double antique!

 

[Hmerkle]

Mike,
I have to agree - the latest pictures display some open grain - and look more like mahogany, the original pictures have that typical grain shape of cherry, but close-ups show something completely different - cherry does not have that open grain!

Also found some information on watertown table slide company
http://www.watertownhistory.org/articles/watertowntableslide.htm

They were purchased in 1985 and there is not much good info on Riess;
They are more of a plastic furniture company.

Reiss Industries, LLC
A privately held company in Watertown, WI.

[h=2]More Details for Reiss Industries, LLC[/h]Categorized under Molding Primary Plastics. Our records show it was established in 1975 and incorporated in Wisconsin. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 21300000 and employs a staff of approximately 175.

[h=3]Products or Services[/h]Companies like Reiss Industries, LLC usually offer: Plastic Baseboard Molding, Used Plastic Injection Molding, Black Plastic Molding, Bj Plastic Molding, Plastic Insert Molding.

 

[merrill77]

I think the finish may be varnish... Don't know. I do know that fingernail polish remover (acetone) DOES dissolve it. I put a towel soaked in acetone on the table and went to pick it up a couple hours later and the towel was stuck to the table, like the finish melted. I ripped the towel up and fibers from the towel were imbedded into the finish. Yuck...

Acetone is the solvent for lacquer, but also softens other finshes, including shellac.

Lacquer is normally very durable and water resistant. It was the king of finish for a long time. Shellac can be damaged by water more easily - such as glasses leaving rings. Before proceeding, you must identify the finish. Denatured or rubbing alcohol will soften shellac immediately. It will also dissolve lacquer and water-based finishes, but much more slowly.

 

[bluedawg76]

definitely mahogany or another exotic meant to look like it. Not a varnish and doubtful it's shellac. most likely nitrocellulose lacquer which would be used in production settings and yes, it will haze w/ a wet glass as you described.

 

[Jeff]

A few thoughts while sleuthing around!

1. The gummy feel is probably years of accumulated table wax and grime. Clean/remove with mineral spirits and elbow grease.

2. The top finish is probably non-dewaxed shellac. Hence the water rings and easy removal with acetone or DNA. That's a relatively easy stripping operation without real toxic solvents.

3. Watertown Table Slides: The steel ones were first manufactured about 1959 and US patent #2872261 was issued in 1959. The aluminum slides replaced the steel ones about 1974.

4. The jury is still out on the wood species and an amber or orange shellac may be masking what's really underneath. I'd strip the leaf insert with a dripping wet bath towel soaked in DNA, scrape off the crud, and do it again and again until it looks right and down to bare wood. Then some pics.

5. Refinish with something like Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish. Easy to apply multiple coats, durable, and easy to repair when needed.

http://www.waterlox.com/

BTW, I hate poly finishes for

 

[Jeff]

This one is similar to what the OP has.

Mid-century mahogany finish

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-ANTIQU...221?pt=Antiques_Furniture&hash=item58b1e43d75

 

[SubGuy]

This is as close as I could find as a similar slide patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US3911835

Filing date was 1974.

It very well could be philipine mahogany. It would be extremely difficult to assess the wood type unless viewed in person.

 

[mpnmatthews]

If you want to get a ballpark age on the table, look up the patent application on the slide mechanism at www.uspto.gov (Patent and a Trademark Office).

I went to the USPTO Website, and after learning a new language I did find several patents that had been granted to this Watertown Table Slide Corp. However, there is no pending patent application number on the slide mechanism itself, and none of the patent documents I examined showed a slide mechanism exactly like the one on my table... Some close, some not so close. So I don't have any firm information on that front, either. But it was an excellent suggestion and I did find out that, according to the patents filed in Wisconsin, there actually is a legitimate connection between that state and the manufacture of cheese. And currency counting machines. Go figure.

Update: Patent information was provided by freaking wizards Jeff and Zach

Mike,
I have to agree - the latest pictures display some open grain - and look more like mahogany, the original pictures have that typical grain shape of cherry, but close-ups show something completely different - cherry does not have that open grain!

Also found some information on watertown table slide company
http://www.watertownhistory.org/articles/watertowntableslide.htm

They were purchased in 1985 and there is not much good info on Riess;
They are more of a plastic furniture company.

Reiss Industries, LLC
A privately held company in Watertown, WI.

More Details for Reiss Industries, LLC

Categorized under Molding Primary Plastics. Our records show it was established in 1975 and incorporated in Wisconsin. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 21300000 and employs a staff of approximately 175.

Products or Services

Companies like Reiss Industries, LLC usually offer: Plastic Baseboard Molding, Used Plastic Injection Molding, Black Plastic Molding, Bj Plastic Molding, Plastic Insert Molding.

I guess the first pictures were misleading, or the color has aged to the point where the wood is masquerading as cherry! BTW, isn't mahogany of "higher quality" than cherry? And more difficult to work?

Chris, is there any way to know for certain what kind of tree this wood came from?- Nevermind. Zach answered this question while I was posting it lol

 

[LewisT]

I had a similar question on another site, here's the source/response I got from someone. Your wood looks similar.

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/rubberwood/

 

[bluedawg76]

Parawood is another possibility but doesn't usually have the ribbon effect as shown in one of the photos which is a dead ringer for mahogany as are some of the other photos. Unfortunately, mahogany is not a single species of wood like black walnut - it can come from several different species of trees so that that's hard to nail down, but really a moot point. Parawood is more common in butcher block style tables, than tables w/ full-length planks IIRC.

Rather than refinish something like this, I would clean it first -it's gummy b/c of wax/oil buildup. Refinishing can be a nightmare, particularly w/ veneers which I'm guessing are along the curved sides -you could easily do more damage than good -BTDT- so IMO, that is an absolute last resort. Scraping finish off or adding methylene chloride or toluene based strippers takes seconds, restoring a piece takes days/weeks/months depending on your other life. If it were me, I'd thoroughly clean it w/ mineral spirits or other products suitable for lacquer finish (in a well-ventilated area such as outdoors). As far as I know, shellac was phased out of production furniture shops in the 40s and I doubt it's that old; either way, nitrocellulose lacquer will ring and spot w/ water just like shellac, just not as quickly. After you clean it, polish w/ a dark paste wax. You'd be amazed at the results. Best part, is you can easily get it done over the weekend. JMTCW.

Sam