Garage electrical question

Status
Not open for further replies.

NOTW

Notw
Senior User
I recently moved and the new house has a less than impressive electrical panel. It has a 125A 12 space (24 circuit) electrical panel in the garage which is already maxed out with house electrical loads. The house is slab on grade and the meter panel is on the other side of the house. My question is would I be better off replacing the entire panel with a larger panel or should I do a sub panel fed from the existing panel and then re-feed the couple of circuits I stole from for the sub panel?
 

NOTW

Notw
Senior User
or would it be best to do (2) tandem breakers on one side to free up two slots and then do a dual pole 60a to feed a sub panel? Also, in slab on grade do they typically run the main power in the slab or in the attic?
 

Phil S

Phil Soper
Staff member
Corporate Member
Is this the only panel in the house? I ask because you stated the meter panel was on the other side of the house and it would be very unusual for there to be that much distance between the meter and the main panel. Some pictures would help.
 

JimD

Jim
Senior User
Increasing from 125A to 200A may require a new feed from the transformer to the house - $$$. An electrician could tell you. If you could do it without that, it could be worth doing just-in-case. I don't worry about the total amps nearly as much as having open spaces for new circuits. I don't believe any of us come close to maxing out our total Amps.

I would get it priced both ways and decide. A separate sub-panel is probably cheaper. But I was pleasantly surprised when I had mine changed out, I think it was only $650. I already had 200A service but I was running out of breaker positions. I took two guys about a day. They were already here doing the rough in for several new circuits. An advantage of a separate panel is you could turn everything off with one breaker and you could lock that panel if you want to.
 

NOTW

Notw
Senior User
Maybe my terminology is a bit off, I guess you could call the panel with the meter socket on it the main and the one feeding the rest of the house minus the A/C units the sub panel. i have attached pictures
attachment.php
attachment.php


So the main has a 2-pole 90A breaker for the subpanel, a 2-pole 25A breaker for the A/C, a 2-pole 45A breaker for the Air Handler and then I'm really not sure what the 2-pole 40 goes to.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1527.jpg
    IMG_1527.jpg
    167.5 KB · Views: 231
  • IMG_1526.jpg
    IMG_1526.jpg
    238.9 KB · Views: 231

Berta

Berta
Corporate Member
Chuck wants to know if you tried turning the breakers in question off? That would tell you what they are for.
 

Phil S

Phil Soper
Staff member
Corporate Member
The 2-pole 40 at the meter panel is for the kitchen stove. It would appear you can add another 2-pole breaker in that meter panel. I would use that space to feed an additional sub panel for your shop, 60 amp 2-pole should be adequate. You will need to run conduit and wire or service cable from the meter panel to the new panel in the shop, most likely up and over thru the attic. I know a good electrician that can do this portion of the job.
 

ehpoole

Administrator
Ethan
By chance was this house formerly divided into units and sublet and then later adapted to single family?

I ask as you have a very odd setup that does not really allow you optimal use of your 200 amp service and is especially inefficient. You appear to have a 200A service feed but it has been broken down into individual 90+45+40+25 (200A) service feeds almost as if once the panel had been used to feed different tenant subpanels plus common loads and then later adapted. Though unlabeled, I presume that the 90A breaker is the service feeding your 125A subpanel and the 40A perhaps an oven to some other appliance or subpanel elsewhere?

If the 125A subpanel is the only other service panel feeding the bulk of your house circuits (save for the few in the service entrance panel) then your housewiring is likely quite old and ideally in need of a refit of you want to add much else, which complicates expanding things as-is because you will really need to audit all your other regular loads to ensure that your added shop loads are not at risk of overloading the 90A feed to your subpanel.

If you had a proper 200A main breaker/service disconnect at your service entrance then you could have simply added another circuit in the combined service entrance and main panel, but because it has no single “main” breaker for your service drop any new circuit would potentially allow the total amperage on your service feed to exceed the 200A rating of your drop, unless the other breakers were collectively reduced by the same total amperage as the new breaker. For example, if you added a 60A breaker in that panel to feed a new subpanel to serve your shop loads then you could potentially draw up to 260A on your drop (90+45+40+25+60=260A), which would violate code since the potential exists to draw more than the rated 200A without an overcurrent protection device tripping.

If you have enough capacity remaining unused to service your shop needs in addition to the existing house loads in that presumably 90A circuit feeding the subpanel then you could remove two circuits to install a double-pole 240V breaker in the existing subpanel to feed another subpanel — but shop loads could easily consume anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 (25-50A) of that existing 90A feed which means you could need unrealistic levels of spare unused capacity. However, you would need a careful audit of the existing loads to ensure you are not in danger of tripping the subpanel’s main breaker just because, say, the air conditioner cycled in at the same time you also had the water heater cycle on plus clothes drying in the dryer while you are out in your shop running the dust collector and thickness planer and the air compressor cycles on (as a practical real world example). You would need to know, under your typical peak usage conditions (i.e. not everything turned on as that is not typical) what the peak amp load is in each of the two 120V legs to determine how much capacity you really have for your 240V shop loads plus any added 120V circuits you may add.

Your best bet at this time is to break down and actually hire a competent electrician to audit your existing electrical and provide you with the best advice on how to move forward and safely add your new circuits.

It may well be that your most practical option includes upgrading the service entrance panel to one that includes a proper 200A main disconnect breaker and has room for a dozen or so slots so that you can transfer the existing loads in that main panel over to the new panel and still have enough room to add another 60-100A breaker to feed a second “shop” subpanel in your garage/workshop.
 

Dee2

Board of Directors, Vice President
Gene
Staff member
Corporate Member
Not sure age of the house has anything to do with competency of the electrical installer. Looks like the OP has the same arrangement as I do with a house built in ~2004. I say ~ because we didn't buy it new. Not sure when the detached shop was added but it feeds off the outside "main" panel like the OP wants to do. OBTW, the inside-the-house panel has no room left for adding circuits and some lighting circuits have the 2-in-1 breakers.

The strange thing on mine was someone labeled the HW heater in the in-house panel and when we would leave I was actually turning off the AH for upstairs. Figured that one out when I replaced the HW. I have to go outside to turn off the HW; which I always do when we go on road trips.

Morale: Always check voltage before doing electrical on anything. Incompetency knows no bounds. Safety is a personal responsibility.
 

NOTW

Notw
Senior User
The house was built in 2004 and never designed or used as dual units. The way the service entrance and the sub panel are done without an MCB is the same way my last house was wired. The only issue with this house is there are no extra breaker spaces in the sub panel. I can only imagine that this panel was a few bucks cheaper than the next larger one so it got selected.

Phil if you don't mind would you please send me the contact information for your electrician and do you know if he is willing to let me do a lot of the wiring and just have him do the final connections to save on cost? Thank you
 

Rwe2156

DrBob
Senior User
You can free up space using split breakers on the 110V single poles.

I've never seen a set up like that. Where is the main breaker?

Good choice on getting an electrician to check this out.
 
Last edited:

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
That is an easy answer - upgrade the panel to 200 amps. When you do that, make sure that your electrical contractor provides a panel with enough space for future expansion, especially for double-pole breakers. Just having a 200 amp panel does not mean that you have the ability to install as many breakers and especially double-pole breakers that you may need.

Pete

I recently moved and the new house has a less than impressive electrical panel. It has a 125A 12 space (24 circuit) electrical panel in the garage which is already maxed out with house electrical loads. The house is slab on grade and the meter panel is on the other side of the house. My question is would I be better off replacing the entire panel with a larger panel or should I do a sub panel fed from the existing panel and then re-feed the couple of circuits I stole from for the sub panel?
 

Phil S

Phil Soper
Staff member
Corporate Member
I shared your photos with my electrician. He said no problem
i sent you a pm with his info
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Premier Sponsor

Our Sponsors

LATEST FOR SALE LISTINGS

Top