8000 water stone good enough?
- Thread starter Robert166
- Start date
I used to do all my work with a 600 grit stone. Now I have a translucent Arkansas stone that is probably around 4000 grit.
It also depends on how you use it...
It also depends on how you use it...
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A dark hole indeed ........ Short answer ...... yes- it is plenty to hone something to a fine edge before taking it to a strop.
However, like Mike inferred- you can get there many ways. I have a 6000 someone gave me but TBH, I use it for polishing more than anything else.
Just depends on what you like/makes you happy.
However, like Mike inferred- you can get there many ways. I have a 6000 someone gave me but TBH, I use it for polishing more than anything else.
Just depends on what you like/makes you happy.
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Most of the time it is not the stone you finish with but the steps you take to get there.
Some people finish before they start.
Some people finish before they start.
I am certainly guilty of that!
100 ways to sharpen. 99 of them work. Pick one of them.
Truth is if it performs as needed. In use, can you dial in a transparent curl? How hard to push? Strop or not? Once I got a Hoch iron in my Sears block plane, I could swipe the end of a 2 x 4 going only 600 and a quick strop in my palm. I thought that was sharp until...
FWIW, for my #4, 102, and block, "touchup" is on a Shapton 12,000 and then strop. Overkill, though I love how quickly the Shapton cuts.* I settled on this as the first system that works for me. Key: works for me. Irons and knives I strop on hide, chisels on MDF. Green compound. Of course, my scrub plane stops at 1200 with a quick de-burr strop. #5 for shooting I keep sharp, but my generic #5 and #6 I don't go so fine. If I had the money, I might test a 6000 Shapton and then strop but I don't see a reason to change.
* Just thinking, not sure I have touched my black Ark since. Too slow, as was my Coors and Spyderco.
Truth is if it performs as needed. In use, can you dial in a transparent curl? How hard to push? Strop or not? Once I got a Hoch iron in my Sears block plane, I could swipe the end of a 2 x 4 going only 600 and a quick strop in my palm. I thought that was sharp until...
FWIW, for my #4, 102, and block, "touchup" is on a Shapton 12,000 and then strop. Overkill, though I love how quickly the Shapton cuts.* I settled on this as the first system that works for me. Key: works for me. Irons and knives I strop on hide, chisels on MDF. Green compound. Of course, my scrub plane stops at 1200 with a quick de-burr strop. #5 for shooting I keep sharp, but my generic #5 and #6 I don't go so fine. If I had the money, I might test a 6000 Shapton and then strop but I don't see a reason to change.
* Just thinking, not sure I have touched my black Ark since. Too slow, as was my Coors and Spyderco.
Okay full discloser here, and it is a bit embarrassing. New blade, I use a jig to hold the blade at the correct angle. Was set to 25 degrees, then I said hmmm that doesn't look right, new blade is 30 degrees. 
Set the jig to 30 degrees and well what do you know?! Nice sharp blade that performs as it should.
I get the old blade out and set it to 30 degrees instead of 25, ( took quite a bit of work on my 300 grit diamond stone to redo all my malfunctions) well well well it performs correctly too. It is the simple things I overlook (always) before I go back to the basics and correct my mistakes. Side note, I do like the Veritas blade. I humbly and with a bit of embarrassment thank you guys for your patience.
Set the jig to 30 degrees and well what do you know?! Nice sharp blade that performs as it should.
I get the old blade out and set it to 30 degrees instead of 25, ( took quite a bit of work on my 300 grit diamond stone to redo all my malfunctions) well well well it performs correctly too. It is the simple things I overlook (always) before I go back to the basics and correct my mistakes. Side note, I do like the Veritas blade. I humbly and with a bit of embarrassment thank you guys for your patience.
8000 will work, yes, but I thinks it's overkill. That's like 3 micron. That will produce a really smooth surface, but will dull quickly. I sharpen using the Sorby Pro Edge system and I sharpen my chisels down to 240. In fact I do my turning skews at 120 and they produce a very smooth finish, I can start sanding with 320 grit sandpaper.
If you wanna use the 8000, go for it, but you don't need to go finer.
8000 is plenty, 4000 is fine as well for 95% of work. Get a wire edge, strop it off and go back to work.
You've got it switched. 25° primary and 30° secondary
You are correct. I blame it on old-timers' disease! LOL
You highlight different tools, different usage, and different edge requirements. My scrub is not honed to 16,000 for sure, but my 101 is as I can use it to take transparent shavings off soft wood end grain. To get BESS 120 and lower on my kitchen knives, I am stropping at .5 micron. I think I am settling on 6000 for most irons and chisels for hand use. Undecided on deburr using stropping with compound, end grain swipe or my palm. Damage is easier to see with the edge polished even if it does not cut any better.
How long will that edge last?
Only one correct answer: It depends
Use, material, your technique, etc.
An edge lasts in poplar a lot longer than purpleheart.
One pine knot can do you in.
My Hock irons hold up better than Taylor or vintage unknown.
Narlex cryo holds better than my Marples and way better than my vintage chisels.
Anything sharper than BESS 250 is darn sharp and unless trimming a basswood picture frame corner, more than enough in my experience. You can get there with a 3000 Sharpton.
In my kitchen, I use Dexter, Victorinox, and Meismeister "scullery safe" knives. They hold up as long as they never get damaged. Soft HDPE cutting boards do wonders. One chop on an acrylic board, done for. These are all honed to 120 to 140 BESS and about 62 hardness. I have never sharpened my slicer as only a tiny bit of the tip ever touches anything but meat. Utility gets beat up and about every couple of months needs a stone. I use a polished Dexter steel weekly on the utility, cheese, and chef's as then get damage by chopping. Serrated, ceramic or diamond steels will kill a kitchen knife to worse than 350 in one swipe. We can tell the difference easily. But many could not tell if it was 500. 500 will slice note paper. 120 a paper towel with 30 degree total edge.
Sharp has more to do with angle. A scalpel or strait razor is very low angle, around 16 total, but fragile. My bench hatchet is steeper, but tough. Until this century, we had no stone better than a black ark with horse butt strop. Polish to .1micron but a 180 degree angle it won't cut more than air.
Pushing a #4 through 3 feet of red oak, I can't tell the difference from fresh hone @ 120 BESS starting and 250 for the next pile of boards. Maybe maple burl you could. Trimming end grain in soft wood, difference shows up quicker.
It depends.
Use, material, your technique, etc.
An edge lasts in poplar a lot longer than purpleheart.
One pine knot can do you in.
My Hock irons hold up better than Taylor or vintage unknown.
Narlex cryo holds better than my Marples and way better than my vintage chisels.
Anything sharper than BESS 250 is darn sharp and unless trimming a basswood picture frame corner, more than enough in my experience. You can get there with a 3000 Sharpton.
In my kitchen, I use Dexter, Victorinox, and Meismeister "scullery safe" knives. They hold up as long as they never get damaged. Soft HDPE cutting boards do wonders. One chop on an acrylic board, done for. These are all honed to 120 to 140 BESS and about 62 hardness. I have never sharpened my slicer as only a tiny bit of the tip ever touches anything but meat. Utility gets beat up and about every couple of months needs a stone. I use a polished Dexter steel weekly on the utility, cheese, and chef's as then get damage by chopping. Serrated, ceramic or diamond steels will kill a kitchen knife to worse than 350 in one swipe. We can tell the difference easily. But many could not tell if it was 500. 500 will slice note paper. 120 a paper towel with 30 degree total edge.
Sharp has more to do with angle. A scalpel or strait razor is very low angle, around 16 total, but fragile. My bench hatchet is steeper, but tough. Until this century, we had no stone better than a black ark with horse butt strop. Polish to .1micron but a 180 degree angle it won't cut more than air.
Pushing a #4 through 3 feet of red oak, I can't tell the difference from fresh hone @ 120 BESS starting and 250 for the next pile of boards. Maybe maple burl you could. Trimming end grain in soft wood, difference shows up quicker.
It depends.
Yup different strokes, pardon the pun 
. I would start by pointing what works for you depends on the wood & what you’re doing. For example end grain paring soft wood has a totally different requirement than cleaning up an oak mortise wall or paring a tenon to a knife line.
Personally I like very sharp tools. I keep a strop handy on the bench and freshen an edge as needed rather than wait til it’s totally dull.
IMHO 30,000 is overkill, but not 8000. I routinely go to 8000 on both chisels and plane irons. If I’m dealing with certain kinds of grain I’ll go to 16000 on the plane irons. I can tell the difference.
Anyone honing to a primary bevel, please stop. It is a total waste of time and energy. I freehand sharpen so I don’t even know what degree the secondary bevel is, sometimes there’s a tertiary bevel. When I do check it’s anywhere from 30-35.
Bevel angle is not critical with a bevel down plane, affect chisels and of course bevel up planes. I try to not go over 30°. I keep a couple chisels honed to 20° for really soft wood. A hollow ground bevel improves performance by decreasing the wedge effect.
As the 2° bevel widens with repeated honing, I hollow grind and then use a jig to re-establish a 1°.
We also have to remember that when talking about grits sandpaper, diamond, and water stones have their own system. Somewhere is a chart comparing them.
. I would start by pointing what works for you depends on the wood & what you’re doing. For example end grain paring soft wood has a totally different requirement than cleaning up an oak mortise wall or paring a tenon to a knife line.Personally I like very sharp tools. I keep a strop handy on the bench and freshen an edge as needed rather than wait til it’s totally dull.
IMHO 30,000 is overkill, but not 8000. I routinely go to 8000 on both chisels and plane irons. If I’m dealing with certain kinds of grain I’ll go to 16000 on the plane irons. I can tell the difference.
Anyone honing to a primary bevel, please stop. It is a total waste of time and energy. I freehand sharpen so I don’t even know what degree the secondary bevel is, sometimes there’s a tertiary bevel. When I do check it’s anywhere from 30-35.
Bevel angle is not critical with a bevel down plane, affect chisels and of course bevel up planes. I try to not go over 30°. I keep a couple chisels honed to 20° for really soft wood. A hollow ground bevel improves performance by decreasing the wedge effect.
As the 2° bevel widens with repeated honing, I hollow grind and then use a jig to re-establish a 1°.
We also have to remember that when talking about grits sandpaper, diamond, and water stones have their own system. Somewhere is a chart comparing them.
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