Try square - square enough?

[danceswithwindows]

So I bought a few new layout tools from Lee valley in an attempt to up my game a little bit. I am disappointed with the new 4 inch try square I received.

I checked the square against my 1-2-3 blocks and my digital angle finder. It’s off some ( angle finder says 0.3 of a degree).

Am I being too over the top? I think it’s border line whether it is worth complaining to Lee Valley. Maybe my expections were too high - if it was a dollar store square I would understand but I was hoping for more from a good woodworking supplier.

Interested in your thoughts. You can tell me I’m crazy if you need to!

 

[redknife]

Were it me, I’d contact Lee Valley and request a replacement citing your findings. I would expect them to rectify this problem.

 

[Craptastic]

Honestly it looks a little off even in the picture all alone. There's a definite run in on the width of steel overhang off the wood (unless the picture is misleading).

I'd raise it with them. They will likely quickly correct it if you send the pics you have here.

 

[chris_goris]

Everything ever made has tolerances on the dimensions of its make up. That being said (and I know Ill get tons of blow back because of this) , no square made be will be square every time. I dont know what the tolerance is on the actual 90 degrees but that appears excessive as you can actually SEE the difference in this example as Matt mentioned above. I would certainly trust the gauge block as a benchmark for "square" in this case. Have you reached out to where ever this came from?. I doubt they would have issue with replacing it.

 

[gamiller3rd]

If you contact Lee Valley let us know their response. Good knowledge to file away for future reference.

 

[danceswithwindows]

Thanks everyone. I have gone ahead and sent over the photographs, along with a narrative. I will let you all know what they say. Thanks for helping me gut check this.

 

[Mike Davis]

Lee Valley is a great company, but I don’t consider Crown a top tier toolmaker. Hopefully Lee Valley will replace it. But next time look for a higher quality brand.

 

[Oka]

Based on what you have (89.7 °) that deviation is roughly 2 inches in in 15 ft, so yeah not good, it needs to be replaced.

 

[danceswithwindows]

Update: They consider the one I received defective and well out of spec, and are sending me another one at no charge. They were very helpful and quick in solving the problem. Next time I need something, I will be getting it from Lee Valley. Thanks everyone for your input.

 

[tvrgeek]

Remember, on a wood try, only the inside angle is reliable so not as functional as some other designs.

.3 degrees is actually not terrible. Not useable, but not terrible. Like many woodworking tools, some tuning may be necessary. I have an old square and it was off by about .2. Only a few seconds with a file and it was almost as good as my standards engineer square. For a Crown, you get a stable starting point, then tune to the precision you want. If you do not want to tune, then a Bridge City may do you well. Or Incra, Woodpeckers, etc. and pay the price for high precision.

The trapezoid Japanese squares tend to be very good. So do even half decent engineers squares, and a Johnson brand aluminum speed square is also usually right on. Plastic and clones may not be. But they don't feel good in the hand like the wood and brass Crown you have. Personally, I don't like the feel of a heavy engineers square when doing layout.

Yes, Lee Valley is great to deal with.

Oh yea, I have one of those General digital protractors. Not that accurate. Read the spec. Remember to calibrate before every measurement.

 

[bainin]

Yea-if its a noticeable gap already at 3" , that kinda limits your accurate work to about 1"

Out of curiosity, are those squares adjustable somehow by the end user-it doesnt look like those pins allow for adjustment without drilling out and restarting.

b

 

[mdbuntyn]

Yea-if its a noticeable gap already at 3" , that kinda limits your accurate work to about 1"

Out of curiosity, are those squares adjustable somehow by the end user-it doesnt look like those pins allow for adjustment without drilling out and restarting.

b

Like tvrgeek mentioned, you'd work the blade with a file until it registers square against your reference.

 

[tvrgeek]

It really is not that hard and with your 123 blocks you have a reference. A lot of tool tuning is actually easy once you get the nerve. I refiled a S & J rip back saw into a crosscut, changed the set and tuned. Sounds hard but really it is not. Skills our grandfathers took for granted. Same with tuning a big framing square. Peen the joint one way or the other and you can keep it square until you drop it again.

Or:
A Bridge City is about $60. ( if they still made the old rosewood and brass, I would be hooked)
Woodpeckers 651 $80
Incra $90
Crown rosewood $24 but as you know, needs tuning. Probably the same for Marples, S&J, Irwin, Johnson.
Engineers square about $18 ( I have a DIN certified one, so it was more like $35. Great for machine setup, but too heavy for layout. Stays in box as a reference)
Japanese square about $20 ( Using it more and more but it is only about 4 inches)
Johnson speed square $9 ( stays square even if you drop it but does not fit in an apron easily. Great planeing stop. )
I have a PEC "blem" from Taylor. Dead on. A 6 inch double T is under $30.

I still just like using my wood one and it was worth half an hour to tune for me.

 

[bob vaughan]

About a week back I was checking one of my squares with my 1-2-3 blocks. The square was out, or so I thought. Turns out that the blocks were out square a wee bit. Well made and precision ground parallel surfaces, for sure, but a parallelogram rather than a rectangle. For machine shop purposes, this is fine. The square in question had a glue smear on it. Scraped off the smear and all was well.

 

[Warped Woodwerks]

This is woodworking, we don't need precision. I am kidding, of course.

I feel your pain.. I bought some "precision" squares (Bridge City - All 3 diff sizes, PEC 4" & 9", Kinex 6") and most are 89.8 - 89.9 degrees. 4" - 9" squares. NONE are 90 degrees.

Not knowing or having a square you can rely on, to be 90 degrees, can be frustrating. Spending all of that hard earned money on "close enough." Doesn't cut it for me.

I want precision, not close enough to precision. Unfortunately, with that... I'll have to spend grown-up money and buy a Starrett square (solid, not tri), then use that as a reference, to square my other squares...

Oh well.. gotta pay to play.

Regardless of my experience, or opinions... good luck and no matter what.. get to making sawdust!

 

[tvrgeek]

Rory, if your B-C squares are out, send them back! They have very precise specifications. ( .05 degrees)

If all of your squares are off what seems to be the same direction, I would wonder about your reference. How are you measuring degrees? The General digital protractor is spec @ .3 degrees. It is not terribly precise. But for $20, I think it is amazing. I think mine is a little better than that.

My reference is a Kinex 6 inch. Note that specifications are usually written as a ratio. i.e. .0003 over 6 inches. That way it covers both square and strait. All my "keepers" I can put back to back on a surface plate and see no light. I would have to remember my trig for what angle that corresponds to. Oscar Has A Heap Of Apples....

 

[Rwe2156]

I wouldn’t trust that General gauge at all. I tried one once and it was off - coincidentally by exactly .3°

The best way to check a square is scribe a knife line, flip the square and see if it’s parallel.

Good chance there‘s nothing wrong with it, way more likely your reference is faulty.

 

[cyclopentadiene]

The challenge here is also how square is your reference. Most woodworking tool providers and even those providing your digital angle finder or 123 blocks may not be either. ISO requires that every measurement device is calibrated against a NIST or ASTM standard reference before using in their facility for testing in the quality department. Testing is generally on a batch or time based approach so it defects do pass by. 6 sigma is the pinnacle which means 3.4 defects per million. Most ISO can get away with companies are 3 sigma.
Lee Valley is Canadian but they may still be sourcing from China conducting QA and selling under their label. Since COVID, very few have visited China for quality audits so quality may have slipped considerably.
Almost all web sites suggest not to purchase a new car now because many are lemons!

 

[tvrgeek]

I wouldn’t trust that General gauge at all. I tried one once and it was off - coincidentally by exactly .3°

The best way to check a square is scribe a knife line, flip the square and see if it’s parallel.

Good chance there‘s nothing wrong with it, way more likely your reference is faulty.

I agree, a knife scribe is probably the accuracy we need, whatever the number is. We engineering ( anal retentive) types like our numbers, but craftsmen know it is relative that is important.

 

[tvrgeek]

The challenge here is also how square is your reference. Most woodworking tool providers and even those providing your digital angle finder or 123 blocks may not be either. ISO requires that every measurement device is calibrated against a NIST or ASTM standard reference before using in their facility for testing in the quality department. Testing is generally on a batch or time based approach so it defects do pass by. 6 sigma is the pinnacle which means 3.4 defects per million. Most ISO can get away with companies are 3 sigma.
Lee Valley is Canadian but they may still be sourcing from China conducting QA and selling under their label. Since COVID, very few have visited China for quality audits so quality may have slipped considerably.
Almost all web sites suggest not to purchase a new car now because many are lemons!

Unmonitored QA from China OEM's is a common problem and not new, matched by insufficient inspection on receiving for material substitution. Lowest cost bids are infamous for that. Intentional cheating throws all my SPC experience out the window. Made in China is not bad per-say, made anywhere without proper process monitoring is the problem. Of course, that raises the cost and for some reason, most goods are sold on initial retail price, not TCO. Blame ourselves as much as the OEM.

Yes, my Kinex came with a ISO cert. of the DIN standard. Telling the truth I do not know, but it is square as close as I can measure.