Try square - square enough?

Warped Woodwerks

.
Senior User
Rory, if your B-C squares are out, send them back! They have very precise specifications. ( .05 degrees)

If all of your squares are off what seems to be the same direction, I would wonder about your reference. How are you measuring degrees? The General digital protractor is spec @ .3 degrees. It is not terribly precise. But for $20, I think it is amazing. I think mine is a little better than that.

My reference is a Kinex 6 inch. Note that specifications are usually written as a ratio. i.e. .0003 over 6 inches. That way it covers both square and strait. All my "keepers" I can put back to back on a surface plate and see no light. I would have to remember my trig for what angle that corresponds to. Oscar Has A Heap Of Apples....

I reached out to B.C., when I originally received my squares, and asked that they send replacements or take these back.
Besides, they also had poor Q.C.... glue & foam melted onto the bases.

They said I could clean the squares.. forgot their recommendations for what chemical to clean them with. I thought their response lacked professionalism.
They also made mention to the fact that I could loosen the 4 threaded screws, on each square, and use their instructions (attached email document) to square them back to 90. Again.. another lack of professionalism.

Well, one of the reasons why I bought their squares was for using them as a reference as well as knowing they were "90 degrees" from the start. I quickly found out that I had to buy something else.. for my reference. Another "X" in my book.

I also bought 1 of their T.S. miter gauges... not cheap, btw..

The other squares. Kinex\Pec. Forgot which one, but they have issues, too, besides not being 90 degrees.
1 of the squares has a slight bump on the blade, like a slight curve. One wouldn't know about this unless they put a straight edge to it blade.
Another square (either the PEC or Kinex) has a slight "tail" on the blade? Not sure I am explaining correctly. Anyways...

I feel that I need to either buy some TRUE 90 degree 1x2x3 blocks... or a Starrett solid square, and then use that to reference my B.C. and check to see how off my PEC & Kinex are.

Found emails from B.C.

My email to B.C.

Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 5:01 PM

to Bridge


Hello,

My order arrived, today, and the small square seems to be off and has a bunch of rubbery stuff (glue & rubber) on it.

Please see attached photos...


Regards,

Rory


Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 12:07 PM

to me


Hey Rory,

My apologies! Sometimes the adhesive from the packaging can leak onto the tool and create an unsightly stain on the tool. If you take some light duty cleaner, it should come off very easily. As for the squareness of the tool, our squares sometimes come out of square in transit, because they are meant to be easily adjustable at home! If you loosen the 4 screws at the back of the square, you can shift the blade a couple degrees, and that should be enough to get it back in square. I have attached an instruction booklet to show you how this is done. Let me know if you need anything else my friend. Have a great day!


----
Nathan Anderson
Customer Support
HARVEY INDUSTRIES INTERNATIONAL, Inc.


===========================


After their response, I was left with a sour taste in my mouth.. so I just decided to leave it alone and learn my lesson. Yes, I was angry\upset, especially after paying over $200 (shipped) for all 3 squares, but I didn't want to deal with them anymore. Couldn't and wouldn't trust them.

Unsightly stain?? No.. this is actual glue and melted rubber, but nice try B.C..

Squares can come out of square during transit? OK, maybe so, but... Either tighten the screws a little more, or use better packaging.. or both?

From their responses, I knew asking them for anything else was a waste of my time. I decided to chalk it up as a loss... of sorts.
I was very interested in their Alpha Band Saw, but just couldn't pull the trigger on it, knowing my previous experience\s with B.S.

Bridge City lost a customer.

Live and learn.

Just my experience with B.C. Others could have the complete opposite experience.


R.
 

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mdbuntyn

Matt
Staff member
Corporate Member
Though most tools sold at this price point are manufactured in China, for anyone wondering, Crown Tools are made in England.
 
Last edited:

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
Rory,
I don't really see a problem with the B-C response. Yes, any jolt in transport can knock something, so that it is easily user adjustable may be considered a plus, but it also suggests careful handling in the shop over time. The glue is something they should fix. Maybe you are jinxed as my Kinex, iGaging, Johnson, Shinwa, and PEC are all just fine. So are my old Post triangles. I checked several Irwin and Milwaukee speed squares against themselves and found them to be not too great, but more than good enough for framing. I had several combo squares and they were all terrible, but they were cheap ones with Zinc heads that even if you tune them, 10 uses later they are off again. My iGaging and PEC are iron heads.

Of course, if you really hate them, I'll give you $10 each for them :)

Oh, on the Japanese squares, watch out for the measurements. Metric not bad, but if "inches" they are Chinese inches, not Imperial. Most people do not know there is a difference and they are not advertised correctly. I don't use them for measuring anyway, just marking.

Matt,
Having little British cars as my other hobby, I am not sure I would put any stock in "Made in England". We love them for how they work, when they work, after we make them work. I would put that Crown square in the same bucket. Great after we tune it up.

FWIW, I used to be a manufacturing quality engineer. I am well versed in ISO and actual SPC. Just when you see ISO does not mean the product is any good. Look at which spec. I have seen some advertise ISO certified, but it was for tracking, not manufacturing. Besides, even if it is the correct 5000 series, all it means is the process produces what they intend, not if it meets some spec the consumer thinks it should. We do not know what the sourcing brand specified. Maybe great, maybe junk. It is bad business to produce more than 3 Lambda outside of spec, to either good or bad.

FWIW, part 2. I have a couple of Starrett tools. I would suggest all of them are not what they used to be.
 

Warped Woodwerks

.
Senior User
FWIW, part 2. I have a couple of Starrett tools. I would suggest all of them are not what they used to be.
If you suggest that all of Starrett tools are not what they used to be..." would you advise that I purchase some 1x2x3 blocks, instead of spending $180+ on a 6" Starrett square, and reference my B.C. squares to those? If so, which 1x2x3 blocks would you buy, or recommend?

If I can get "perfect" 90 degrees, then I'll do a happy dance.....and continue making sawdust.

Thanks..
 

mdbuntyn

Matt
Staff member
Corporate Member
@tvrgeek I was only addressing the implication that Crown Tools are made in China. I've edit my comment to reflect that
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
If you suggest that all of Starrett tools are not what they used to be..." would you advise that I purchase some 1x2x3 blocks, instead of spending $180+ on a 6" Starrett square, and reference my B.C. squares to those? If so, which 1x2x3 blocks would you buy, or recommend?

If I can get "perfect" 90 degrees, then I'll do a happy dance.....and continue making sawdust.

Thanks..
Suggesting that some of them have slipped. I sure hope not all. For instance, I bought a small size tap handle. Looks great, but is not really any better than the junk one than came in my mid-price tap set.

123 blocks are handy, but small for a reference. As was mentioned, all you need is a strait edge and a marking knife to get as close as joinery needs. We can only use slightly better than we can scribe.

You are not that far from Hillsborough or closer members. I offer if you drop by with all your squares, you can compare them to all of mine.

I sure would not spend $180 on a Starrett unless I was a professional machinist and was setting up machinery. But then again, some here love having what is the best. Some have found them used for reasonable prices. I sure did not need my L-N pocket plane, but I really enjoy using it.
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
As an example, the " verified square" try I got from Ed's vintage tool store was neither square, not even strait. It was close enough if you still used a pencil I guess.

Anyway, it only took about an hour to straiten the edges of the blade and brass, tiny relief at the joint, and then file both sides true. I am pretty good at metal work, but I am no master tool and die maker either. If I can do it, anyone can. 6 inch try, now better than half a thou. That is within a knife mark.
 

Gotcha6

Dennis
Staff member
Corporate Member
As an example, the " verified square" try I got from Ed's vintage tool store was neither square, not even strait. It was close enough if you still used a pencil I guess.

Anyway, it only took about an hour to straiten the edges of the blade and brass, tiny relief at the joint, and then file both sides true. I am pretty good at metal work, but I am no master tool and die maker either. If I can do it, anyone can. 6 inch try, now better than half a thou. That is within a knife mark.
Sounds good. Wish I could cut to the line that straight........
 

tvrgeek

Scott
Corporate Member
That is where I am. I now have tools that mark strait, knives and gauges I can trust, and biggest is saws that cut exactly where I point them. So, when I screw up, I know it is me. ( frequently)

I know a real craftsman can do outstanding work with crappy tools, but I found as a beginner, I was not learning much when I did not know if it was tool or me. Now I can concentrate, and have learned/built skills, much faster. Besides that, the engineer half of me loves nice tools.
 

BKHam

Bradley
User
I've received some crown brand tools as gifts over the years and never been too impressed with them. Its not a lee valley product. Veritas, their in-house brand, is always good stuff.

if you are looking for a budget item, the steel machinist squares are pretty good when i've bought them. as several mentioned, you can ground them perfect if not. if you go into a more premium price range, I think your chances of getting dead square out of the box are higher.
 

danceswithwindows

danceswithwindows
Corporate Member
Received a replacement square from LV. Pretty much bang on with my 1-2-3 blocks. Nothings perfect, but I feel a lot better about this one.

Thanks to everyone who contributed! I suppose you are only as square as the last thing you squared yourself against. Life lesson in there somewhere. Y’all are awesome!
 

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