Period furniture reproduction question

[Phil S]

I am starting to build a reproduction of a Pennsylvania spice cabinet. The design is by Steve Latta and uses a line and berry design on both sides of the door. I have decided to create the design using hand tools, there are many arcs all requiring separate pivot points.

My question is should the pivot points show in the finished product?

 

[mkepke]

Well.. not in the Latta version they don't. Latta hides the pivot points in areas that either are, or will be cut for inlay. In the rare case where that doesn't happen, he uses a piece of plexi-glass to protect the work from the point.

See FWW #196 for details.

-Mark

 

[Joe Scharle]

I put berries in the one I did. I used the Woodsmith project and it showed how to lay it out.

 

[TENdriver]

Phil, Don't know if you've already seen or have access to FWW or AWW archive issues but I recall a decent article on line and berry work in FWW and a pretty good spice box in AWW back around 1994.

If you're interested, I can pull up which issues.


EDIT: this book has a pretty good (few pages long) article on line and berry spice build that may be from FWW Sept 1988. You'll note author's description of trammel point.

 

[chris_goris]

I am starting to build a reproduction of a Pennsylvania spice cabinet. The design is by Steve Latta and uses a line and berry design on both sides of the door. I have decided to create the design using hand tools, there are many arcs all requiring separate pivot points.

My question is should the pivot points show in the finished product?

Phil, Im thinking they probably shouldnt show, however I am unsure of exactly what I am looking at. That being said, can you explain to the rest of us what exactly this technique entails? Is it a "simple " groove detail cut in the face or is there more to it?. Is it filled after? what is the cross section supposed to be a Vee , rectangular, half round?. I realize this is cheating, but it looks like a CNC is the way to go for this!. I really like the look and am curious! thanks!

 

[danmart77]

I am starting to build a reproduction of a Pennsylvania spice cabinet. The design is by Steve Latta and uses a line and berry design on both sides of the door. I have decided to create the design using hand tools, there are many arcs all requiring separate pivot points.

My question is should the pivot points show in the finished product?

Phil
Its pretty easy to hide the pivot points with a berry like Joe suggests or use something to keep the point from leaving a mark. I have always used 1/8" strips cut down to the size of a quarter. I take a dab of hide glue and do a simple rub joint. When I am done, a little heat and moisture and off it comes then wipe with warm moist rag.

I have used this method on a veneered surface and not had issues with the under substrate giving out. Its very simple and you can move along without fear of discoloring the final wood surface like you would if you used the yellow glue. For this type of work I use a little of my 250grm hide. It sets faster than the 192 glue. If I mix too much, I just dump it in the pot with the 190 stuff and press on with work.

Hope that helps
Dan

Time to fire up the old glue pot Phil. I saw it last Saturday sitting all alone in the corner.

​

 

[Matt Furjanic]

Done correctly, the pivit point for each arc will be located in the adjacent arc. Draw a circle (using a compass, about 2/3 (distance from the center to the total distance of the pattern), then cut one arc locating the pivot point on the circle. For the next arc, locate the pivot point inside the cut channel and at the intersection of the drawn circle. Repeat this for each arc. This will work, but try it on a scrap first. Rather than using a scratch tool, I use a palm router with a circle jig. Its more accurate and easier, but just not traditional. If you need the banding, and do not want to make it yourself, it is available on my website at www.inlaybanding.com. There are also references and material available for line and berry projects. Matt...

 

[Matt Furjanic]

Here's another pattern you can use. In this case, the pivot points (except the one for the outer 2 circles) fall inside the holes where the berries are located.

 

[Matt Furjanic]

American Woodworker, issue#143, Aug/Sep 2009. Shows how to do the pinwheel design.

 

[Jeff]

Phil, the line and berry inlay is new to me so I started "googling" around.

I'm trying to digest the Steve Latta article which you probably have already along with the downloadable patterns for the front and back. There's also quite a selection of fancy specialty tools required at high dollar Lee-Nielsen prices for a one-off project. How do you plan to layout and cut the inlay grooves without a second mortgage? Just curious.

Here's a WIP inspired by the Latta method including some of the "specialty" tools.

http://www.simplecove.com/118/line-and-berry-inlay/

 

[danmart77]

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tool...Repair/Soundhole_and_Rosette_Routing_Jig.html

This router base from Stewart MacDonald can make routing circles and arcs a bit easier. The offer the base and some attachments to cut rosettes on guitars. Might be interesting for other uses. I don't use mine every day but it is handy when using the dremel tool and small bits.

Dan

 

[Jeff]

Phil wants to build a spice chest that looks kind of like this.........

http://statemuseumpa.org/chester-county-spice-chest/

 

[danmart77]

Phil wants to build a spice chest that looks kind of like this.........

http://statemuseumpa.org/chester-county-spice-chest/

Jeff I don't think he's going in that direction at all. No bun feet and a drawer pattern that is different entirely.

Phil is using the Steve Latta plans offered by FWW and LN. They are very nice plans but as you mentioned earlier-- the project comes with a sticker shock on the tooling. This might be one of those projects that you could get together with some other builders and reduce the cost of tooling a bit.

Lots of photos of Steve's cabinet made to celebrate one of his anniversaries. You'll recognize the Steve Latta cabinet from all the other photos of others work when you see the initials and date of wedding on the inside of the door.

 

[Jeff]

Jeff I don't think he's going in that direction at all. No bun feet and a drawer pattern that is different entirely.

I hope so after looking at the piece, but WTH it's only +/-250 years old.

 

[Phil S]

Some background - I am attempting to build four of these, one as a wedding gift, another for my daughter, and two more for my wife's nurses. Knowing that this will take some time and desiring to keep this a fairly accurate reproduction, I am searching for info on the originals and new way to do this.

Phil, Don't know if you've already seen or have access to FWW or AWW archive issues but I recall a decent article on line and berry work in FWW and a pretty good spice box in AWW back around 1994.

If you're interested, I can pull up which issues.

Yes indeed I would be interested, thanks

Phil, Im thinking they probably shouldnt show, however I am unsure of exactly what I am looking at. That being said, can you explain to the rest of us what exactly this technique entails? Is it a "simple " groove detail cut in the face or is there more to it?. Is it filled after? what is the cross section supposed to be a Vee , rectangular, half round?. I realize this is cheating, but it looks like a CNC is the way to go for this!. I really like the look and am curious! thanks!

The lines are typically holly inlayed into shallow grooves in the main wood. The grooves can be scratched in, routed in, or done on a cnc machine. I actually already bought the Lee Valley mini plunge router base but when I tried it it looked too perfect - sort of like machine cut dovetails. And yes CNC would be perfect but again too perfect. so I just ordered the LN radius and straight cutters - yes they are expensive but hopefully very good. I will forget the cost soon if they work well

Phil
Its pretty easy to hide the pivot points with a berry like Joe suggests or use something to keep the point from leaving a mark. I have always used 1/8" strips cut down to the size of a quarter. I take a dab of hide glue and do a simple rub joint. When I am done, a little heat and moisture and off it comes then wipe with warm moist rag.

I have used this method on a veneered surface and not had issues with the under substrate giving out. Its very simple and you can move along without fear of discoloring the final wood surface like you would if you used the yellow glue. For this type of work I use a little of my 250grm hide. It sets faster than the 192 glue. If I mix too much, I just dump it in the pot with the 190 stuff and press on with work.

Hope that helps
Dan

Time to fire up the old glue pot Phil. I saw it last Saturday sitting all alone in the corner.

​

I will be using hide glue, it will be correct for a reproduction. Plus as you taught me, it is repairable and easy to use​

Done correctly, the pivit point for each arc will be located in the adjacent arc. Draw a circle (using a compass, about 2/3 (distance from the center to the total distance of the pattern), then cut one arc locating the pivot point on the circle. For the next arc, locate the pivot point inside the cut channel and at the intersection of the drawn circle. Repeat this for each arc. This will work, but try it on a scrap first. Rather than using a scratch tool, I use a palm router with a circle jig. Its more accurate and easier, but just not traditional. If you need the banding, and do not want to make it yourself, it is available on my website at www.inlaybanding.com. There are also references and material available for line and berry projects. Matt...

Matt, I did not buy the LN tooling to make the stringing. I assume I can purchase .030" stinging from you.
I like the idea of hiding each pivot point but some designs make that impossible.
Here is a photo of the box I am reproducing. Some arc pivots will not be hidden, so I will use Dans suggestion on those.

Phil, the line and berry inlay is new to me so I started "googling" around.

I'm trying to digest the Steve Latta article which you probably have already along with the downloadable patterns for the front and back. There's also quite a selection of fancy specialty tools required at high dollar Lee-Nielsen prices for a one-off project. How do you plan to layout and cut the inlay grooves without a second mortgage? Just curious.

Here's a WIP inspired by the Latta method including some of the "specialty" tools.

http://www.simplecove.com/118/line-and-berry-inlay/

Yes, the tooling cost is a bit high but hopefully they can be used on many more projects and then later by my children and grandchildren. Reminds me of the question my wife asked when I proudly brought home all the fish I caught with the new boat. She reminded me it was about $20,000 to bring home 5 lbs of fish. Actually that was my ex-wife

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tool...Repair/Soundhole_and_Rosette_Routing_Jig.html

This router base from Stewart MacDonald can make routing circles and arcs a bit easier. They offer the base and some attachments to cut rosettes on guitars. Might be interesting for other uses. I don't use mine every day but it is handy when using the dremel tool and small bits.

Dan

I think The Lee Valley offering is a new product. Works quite well. Let me know if you want to test drive it for awhile

 

[danmart77]

Phil
Looking at the plans you had in the bag in your shop, I was very impressed with the plans. I was not surprised really.. anything from Steve Latta is going to be very well done and easy to understand. Steve does this for a living 5 days/wk and he is still very enthusiastic about woodworking.

When you do get the tools, I'd love to come by and see how you are laying it out. I have some very nice figured veneer that might work for you. I know that Kevin N also has a good bit at his shop. Laying out the inside is big.

till then
Dan

 

[Phil S]

Phil
Looking at the plans you had in the bag in your shop, I was very impressed with the plans. I was not surprised really.. anything from Steve Latta is going to be very well done and easy to understand. Steve does this for a living 5 days/wk and he is still very enthusiastic about woodworking.

When you do get the tools, I'd love to come by and see how you are laying it out. I have some very nice figured veneer that might work for you. I know that Kevin N also has a good bit at his shop. Laying out the inside is big.

till then
Dan

I am closing out a couple of big jobs over the next ten days. After that I will start testing and learning - you are always welcome

 

[TENdriver]

Phil, This is the quick and dirty version of the list of articles, but this is most of them. At least three or four of these cover line and berry technique including the article to accompany the Steve Latta chest.

If you haven't already watched it, there is at least one WoodWrights episode that covers the Steve Latta inlays on the Spice Box.

Glen Huey PWW #125 Dec 2001, pages 49 – 55
Glen Huey PWW #126 Feb 2002, pages 63 - 67
Glen Huey PWW #191 Aug 2011, pages 26 - 33
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/video-tour-of-the-line-berry-chest


Craig Bentzley AWW No. 36 Jan/Feb 1994, pages 28 -33


Alex Krutsky FWW # 72 Sep/Oct 1988, pages 76 - 79
D. Douglas Mooberry FWW # 124 May/Jun 1997, pages 36 - 41
Lonnie Bird FWW #168 Jan/Feb 2004, pages 32 – 35
Steve Latta FWW # 196 Jan/Feb 2008, pages 58 -67
Steve Latta FWW # 196 Jan/Feb 2008, pages 96 -100