Bowl Gouge Grinds - Ellsworth

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
Since getting started in woodturning two years ago, I have done a little experimenting with various grinds for my bowl gouges. I settled on a 50-degree, fingernail grind, as per the Wolverine settings in the Carter and Son Tools sharpening guide. I have two 60-degree, U-shaped profile, bottom feeder gouges too. I tried the very popular 40/40 grind; however, I never saw an advantage of that grind over a 50-degree fingernail grind, except for shear scraping. Kent Weakley, from Turn-a-Wood Bowl, on YouTube, swears by his Ellsworth ground bowl gouges. He grinds them to 55-degrees with sweptback wings. Klingspor sells an Ellsworth grinding jig, so I bought one two days ago.

After making an oak block that was added to the Wolverine extension arm, the getting the right grind angle took about five minutes. After that, I turned the gouge upside down and ground the wings down a little. From there, it was just creating the right profile on an 180 grit CBN wheel, and then finishing it off on a 600 grit CBN wheel. I understand why Kent uses this grind almost exclusively. For roughing the outside of a bowl, it can remove a lot of wood in a hurry. The long 58-degree (60-degrees is the traditional Ellsworth angle) makes riding the bevel easy. The long, razor sharp wings are much better at shear scraping than my 50-degree, fingernail grind, gouges. One of the places where the Ellsworth grind really shines is truing up the bottom of bowl blanks. Fingernail grind gouges can true up a blank, but the Ellsworth grind is so much better, faster, and more accurate. If that is all that this gouge could do, I'd still have on the tool rack.

Hollowing the interior of bowls or plates did not present any significant problems for the Ellsworth grind gouge. It is especially good on the bottoms, especially on bowls where the flow from the side walls is not interrupted by a relatively flat bottom. On traditional bowls, you this gouge can go from the rim to the very bottom of the bowl in one pass. On bowls or plates with nearly flat bottoms, the transition from the wall to the bottom can present a problem for any gouge, especially one with long, sweptback wings. I did have a minor catch on a bowl with a nearly flat bottom while trying to cut the transition. I have had similar problems with my bottom feeder gouges too. Sometimes the best way to deal with this has been to break out a negative rake scraper to clean up the transition.

So, is it time to retire my 50-degree fingernail gouges? Not by a long shot! These gouges make more precise push cuts and were used for the final cuts on both the outside and inside the bowls. I could have gotten away with just using the Ellsworth gouge on the outside, but the less aggressive fingernail gouge was necessary to get the best finish on the inside. Once I acquire more skill with the Ellsworth gouges, there is no reason why they should not be able to produce an acceptable final cut on the inside of bowls, boxes, and plates.

The photo shows the gouge as tested before cleaning up the final grind.
 

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kreisdorph

New User
Kent
My go-to gouges are a 5/8" 55 degree Ellsworth grind, a 1/2" ground the same way, and a detailed spindle gouge. This comes primarily from reading and watching everything Kent Weakley has done on www.turnawoodbowl.com.

I recently bought a Thompson 1/2" bowl gouge with his grind. I am working that into the mix. I have a bottom feeder as well that I use when needed. When needed, I have a half-round scraper I use to smooth out that transition.

I have the same issue with making the transition from side to bottom of the bowl. I tend to end up with a low spot that takes some sanding to correct. I just need more practice.
 

SabertoothBunny

SabertoothBunny
Corporate Member
I prefer the 40/40 grind for most work, spindle or bowl as it is an effective edge for all of that work. This grind allows you show shape effectively and hollow out massive amounts of waste wood. I can take shaping cut from the top of the bowl all the way to the bottom with minimal effort, really amazing how that is possible. I can use a 3/8" bowl gouge with a 40/40 grind to do any sort of spindle work. Where the 40/40 shows its limits is steep hollowing (really deeps, tall vessels, goblets, etc) or bottom flattening in bowls.

In the end, an experienced and confident turner can pick up any tool grind and produce pieces. They all work in the end for the same purpose so what grind one uses just boils down to personal preference. It all comes with time and experience.
 

JRedding

John
Corporate Member
I’m also an Ellsworth grind user, and while I have others I’ve slowly converted many others to that. I took his 3 day class up in Weaverville last year and learned from him how to use it, sharpen it, etc., and it has really made a difference for me.

I don’t think any of them are “right” or “wrong”, just what you get used to and how you handle the different angles of attack to the wood. I happen to find Ellsworth grind easiest and use it both inside and outside.
 

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
My go-to gouges are a 5/8" 55 degree Ellsworth grind, a 1/2" ground the same way, and a detailed spindle gouge. This comes primarily from reading and watching everything Kent Weakley has done on www.turnawoodbowl.com.

I recently bought a Thompson 1/2" bowl gouge with his grind. I am working that into the mix. I have a bottom feeder as well that I use when needed. When needed, I have a half-round scraper I use to smooth out that transition.

I have the same issue with making the transition from side to bottom of the bowl. I tend to end up with a low spot that takes some sanding to correct. I just need more practice.
I can usually make the sidewall to the bottom of most bowls with no problems. When the bottom is mostly flat, that is where I have to be careful. Usually what I do is to take the side wall down as far as I want it to be, then I use a scraper to make the transition. The transition can either be near a 90-degree angle, or a radius can be used to make the transition. I have two heavy-duty box scrapers that are very good for this, but a traditional scraper works good too.

A dogwood that fell in my backyard provided blanks for a bunch of small bowls. Most were under 4", some as small as 2". Those dozens of bowls gave me plenty of practice in cutting small bowls with clean transitions. One rule that I always follow, is to use a freshly sharpened gouge for the final inside and outside cuts. It makes a big difference. It's easy to not realize how much a gouge has dulled while roughing a project.
 

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
I prefer the 40/40 grind for most work, spindle or bowl as it is an effective edge for all of that work. This grind allows you show shape effectively and hollow out massive amounts of waste wood. I can take shaping cut from the top of the bowl all the way to the bottom with minimal effort, really amazing how that is possible. I can use a 3/8" bowl gouge with a 40/40 grind to do any sort of spindle work. Where the 40/40 shows its limits is steep hollowing (really deeps, tall vessels, goblets, etc) or bottom flattening in bowls.

In the end, an experienced and confident turner can pick up any tool grind and produce pieces. They all work in the end for the same purpose so what grind one uses just boils down to personal preference. It all comes with time and experience.
The 40/40 grind is very popular. My perception is that the 40/40 grind, because of its angle to the work, puts the tool closer to the lathe, making some cuts a little awkward for me. On the other hand, the 40-degree bevel reduces for force necessary to perform push cuts. The 40-degree grind is good for cutting interior sidewalls because the handle of the gouge does not have to be as far toward the back of the lathe as with a 60-degree Ellsworth gouge.
 

kreisdorph

New User
Kent
A dogwood that fell in my backyard provided blanks for a bunch of small bowls. Most were under 4", some as small as 2". Those dozens of bowls gave me plenty of practice in cutting small bowls with clean transitions. One rule that I always follow, is to use a freshly sharpened gouge for the final inside and outside cuts. It makes a big difference. It's easy to not realize how much a gouge has dulled while roughing a project.

Dogwood is one of my favorite woods to turn, despite its hardness. Most of my dogwoods are small, too. I do have one that failed to bloom the past two years and it's about 12" in diameter. Plus it's overhanging the house. I think that will be my next harvest.
 

kreisdorph

New User
Kent
The 40/40 grind is very popular. My perception is that the 40/40 grind, because of its angle to the work, puts the tool closer to the lathe, making some cuts a little awkward for me. On the other hand, the 40-degree bevel reduces for force necessary to perform push cuts. The 40-degree grind is good for cutting interior sidewalls because the handle of the gouge does not have to be as far toward the back of the lathe as with a 60-degree Ellsworth gouge.

I saw a video recently that someone posted on AAW. The presenter said that it takes much less force to cut with a 40 degree grind than a 45, 50, 55, etc. Each increase in angle means more pressure to cut. I'm not sure of the science behind it. I think I'll make a 40/40 gouge and find out.
 

SabertoothBunny

SabertoothBunny
Corporate Member
I saw a video recently that someone posted on AAW. The presenter said that it takes much less force to cut with a 40 degree grind than a 45, 50, 55, etc. Each increase in angle means more pressure to cut. I'm not sure of the science behind it. I think I'll make a 40/40 gouge and find out.

Look up Ashley Harwood and Stuart Batty concerning the 40/40 grind. Harwood is a small woman who doesn't weigh a whole lot, I have watched her doing demos with punky oak and she cuts through it like butter with one hand held up because the grind does take less force to cut. I have seen men twice her size struggle to make similar cuts on easier pieces of wood. She acknowledges the grinds limitations and where those are, as does her mentor Stuart Batty, so she has other tools she switches too when necessary. Cindy Drozda uses the 40/40 grind a fair amount as well, she is much older and is no bigger than Harwood.

The bottom line is that when a tiny little woman can shred bowl blanks with minimal effort while men bigger than me struggle I will go to learn from the woman 100% of the time. I even took a class from Harwood, great teacher and she is down in Charleston, SC so it wasn't too long of a drive. She also has a medical condition that makes here sensitive to vibrations and the 40/40 allows those to be minimized or non-existent extending her turning career. I would 100% recommend a class with her even with the cost, she holds them at her home.

What allows the 40/40 to glide through the wood with minimal effort is the lower angle. Steeper angles just do not get "under" the wood to start the cuts the same way so you don't get the same results. You can literally start a cut at the top of a bowl blank and ride it to the bottom as you shape with a 40/40. You can also get clean enough cuts to reduce sanding necessary, even on end grain but it does take practice like everything else. Stuart Batty and Cindy Drozda have great videos on sharpening the 40/40 that you can find online. Check them out if your curious.

I have a couple of bowl gouges I acquired that I am doing the Ellsworth grind on to see how I like those. Haven't worked with them a whole lot but I have noticed the technique to use them is different than the 40/40. I whole heartedly agree there is no "best" grind as they can all achieve the desired results when used properly. Still, turners should try different grinds to see what they can do and figure out what they are comfortable with in the end.
 

JRedding

John
Corporate Member
I’m still trying to get those kind of results occasionally . . . consistently is a dream for me until I retire and have more time to practice (11 months and counting).
 

petebucy4638

Pete
Corporate Member
Dogwood is one of my favorite woods to turn, despite its hardness. Most of my dogwoods are small, too. I do have one that failed to bloom the past two years and it's about 12" in diameter. Plus it's overhanging the house. I think that will be my next harvest.
Dogwood is a very hard wood. I have to resharpen frequently when turning dogwood, but has some attractive grain and color.
 

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