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  1. #16
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    This is basically the system I'm going to build:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v5079FPCsY

    I won't use the XL model though, just the regular Super DD. I plan on using 5" HVAC ducting for the mains.

  2. #17
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkE View Post
    I also have a set of jaw pullers that you are welcome to borrow. 3", 4", 6" and 8"
    Thank you Mark, I'm in Fuquay, so if I can't find a set from AutoZone, I'll give you a buzz.

  3. #18
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    Quote Originally Posted by photostu View Post
    This is basically the system I'm going to build:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v5079FPCsY

    I won't use the XL model though, just the regular Super DD. I plan on using 5" HVAC ducting for the mains.
    Hey Stu, please takes notes on what you do here. I have that HF model and a larger model of Oneida's cyclone. So far the performance is underwhelming, but I see a few reasons why when I compare to the video. The impeller change is interesting idea. Do keep us up to date.
    Henry W
    Prolific creator of sawdust, and sometimes shavings - with the occasional completed project.

  4. #19
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    Quote Originally Posted by gmakra View Post
    Attachment 29136

    You need one of these its called a fan hub puller.
    You can try a 3 jaw but chances are you will be sorry when the impeller breaks and the hub is on the shaft.
    And reports of doubling air flow are suspect if you study fans you will find a little thing known as the fan laws which say something to the effect of that amps go way up on modest increases in flow.
    I use the fan laws nearly daily. They are meant for geometrically similar fans. Because these are significantly different profiles, it doesn't apply here. If it did, you'd see about a 70% increase in flow, but 2.5x the power draw.

    What is likely happening is a combo of a big change in fan efficiency coupled with not stellar measurement techniques.

  5. #20
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    Sean point taken, however even if the new impeller is more efficient there is still a tax on power draw.

  6. #21
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    Some conversion threads I have seen about this denote a higher amperage draw. I'm on a 20A circuit already, not worried about moar power.

    This was the only measurement I needed to see to convince me it was worth it:

    https://youtu.be/8v5079FPCsY?t=86

  7. #22
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    I like the Grey house studios HF upgrade. I also like Tyler G's implementation:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RAoj4urS-Y

    Tyler did not put on the Rikon impeller (he hater changed DCs) but my first interest is the cyclone. My experience with DCs is that without the cyclone there is way too much filter cleaning. So if I put in a DC again, it will have a cyclone.

  8. #23
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    Minor update, I was able to trip the breaker on startup on 2 occasions so far with the new impeller installed. Only on cold starts.

  9. #24
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    Quote Originally Posted by photostu View Post
    Minor update, I was able to trip the breaker on startup on 2 occasions so far with the new impeller installed. Only on cold starts.
    If you can, swap out breaker for a HVAC rated breaker. You will have to go to electrical supply house to find them. I had a heat pump, that the outdoor unit would trip breaker, but fuses in disconnect (same rating) never blew. HVAC rated breaker solved the problem.

  10. The following user says Thank You to junquecol for this useful post:

    Bas

  11. #25
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    Check your connections and if tight replace the breaker.
    Cold start means nothing since this is a a fan and not any kind of positive displacement pump.

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    Re: HF now in Cary

    I would also suggest changing the breaker - and I appreciate the HVAC rated breaker suggestion. I use 1 20 amp circuit for my tools and have most of them auto-starting my shop vac. It is rated to pull 10A. So when the SawStop starts up, I have tools rated to pull 24 amps on a 20A circuit. It works because they don't really pull that simultaneously and the auto on switch avoids peak loading. But I have tripped a few times and thought it was the higher loading of the SawStop. But then the same breaker tripped on my Ryobi AP-10 planner. I don't know what it's rated but it is no more than 15A. I had to mess around in my panel about a week ago adding an outlet next to the panel and swapped two 20A breakers to see what effect that has. But I am sure at this point that my breaker tripping is the breaker due to the planner tripping it. (I am also planning a second 20A line for a DC right now but that is a separate topic)

  13. #27
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    According to this, my SquareD QO breakers are already designated HACR: https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/faqs/FA230479/

    I'll check all my connections and look to replace the breaker if I still have an issue. I'll be throwing a contactor into the mix now for proper remote activation, so will also see if that has any effect.

  14. #28
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    What does your nameplate data say on you dust collection motor?
    What else is on that circuit besides your dust collector?
    That and a AMP PROBE is going to determine what you do next.
    Save your sell any further expenditures like contactor and isolate the problem.
    Then you can fix it.

  15. #29
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    Quote Originally Posted by gmakra View Post
    Check your connections and if tight replace the breaker.
    Cold start means nothing since this is a a fan and not any kind of positive displacement pump.
    It does mean something if by “cold start” he means the impeller is still spinning, even if only very slowly (it can also mean a small bit if the motor is actually significantly warmer as it’s impedance will increase with temperature and the bearing grease is a bit thinner when hot, slightly reducing startup surge current). The impellers used in cyclones are often fairly massive (mine is cast iron) and of good diameter so they can command considerable amperage on startup as it takes a lot of torque and a considerable amount of energy to get all that mass started spinning and up to speed. Additionally, if there is inadequate restriction on the intake and/or exhaust then the fan will be working even harder once up to speed, greatly increasing the average power demand (this is why many DC manuals specifically caution against running the DC, even if just as a test, without the exhaust filter installed and some minimum length of ducting on the intake (or too large a diameter of duct for that matter).

    Contrary to many people’s expectations, once running, these fans will actually draw their minimum amperage when the intake is fully choked off (that’s why DCs and vacuums cleaners/shop vacs actually speed up when the intake is choked off as it does not require much work to move next to no air. But the converse is also true, when they are moving the maximum volume of air (unrestricted intake and exhaust) the fan must work much harder and the amp draw can easily overload the motor and circuit as a result. I just wanted to put this out there for everyone as many don’t realize this fact because it often sounds as though our vacuums are working their hardest when the intake is blocked due to a screaming motor — but that universal motor screams only because it is spinning so fast without any load (and in the case of universal motors that fast spinning can be problematic if the bearings can’t systain such as they can overspeed — overspeed is not an issue with induction motors — but the motor itself is hardly doing any work so the amp draw decreases the more restriction there is).

    It is ok to replace a circuit breaker that seems to be false tripping if it is suspect, as some do trip more readily than others, so long as it is an appropriate breaker for your panel as circuit breakers do eventually wear out if tripped too often under load and their contacts can become pitted over time also leading to added heating and faster tripping. But in this case running an upgraded DC and a tablesaw on the same 20A circuit (if I follow correctly) is very likely to be overloading the circuit. A 1HP DC motor will typically draw up to 10-12A on 120VAC (3-5 times that on startup) and a tablesaw can draw up to 15A under load (it will also have a significant initial startup current, but of much shorter duration than the DC). A dust collector or shop vac should always be placed on its own circuit and separate from that of your power tool because they single-handedly draw such a large percentage of the available current on a standard 15A or 20A circuit leaving rather little left over for the power tool.

    It may help the OP to understand how the circuit breakers in our panels do their job. Our typical circuit breaker incorporates two different trip mechanisms — thermal (slow) and magnetic (very fast). The thermal trip mechanism has a variable time delay that is inverse and exponential to the magnitude of the load — that is, it might take 10 minutes to trip at 10% overload but mere seconds at 200% (these numbers are just examples, you’d have to look up the actual curves for your circuit breaker) — and the purpose of this trip mechanism is to permit minor short term overloading so as to avoid nuisance trips while still protecting your home wiring and receptacles from overheating. In essence, the thermal trip mechanism is meant to be analogous to the heating your home wiring experiences during a modest overload. By contrast, the magnetic trip circuit is meant to very quickly trip the breaker — almost instantaneously — if a severe overload is detected such as a dead short or a sudden surge in demand that is many times the current rating of the circuit breaker (such as suddenly trying to draw 100A on a 20A breaker due to startup surge, for example) and exists because the thermal trip mechanism may not be fast enough on its own to protect the home wiring, receptacle, and the load connected to that wiring in the event of a near short circuit condition. By utilizing two different trip mechanisms they have greatly improved the level of protection while also greatly reducing nuisance trips from modest brief overloads, such as when first turning on your shop vac. However, if you already have a large load running on the circuit and then add a second large load then both the thermal and magnetic load mechanisms are already partially primed by the original running large load which means the substantial startup surge of the second large load is much more likely to trip the breaker than if it were the only significant load — and this is especially true where their total load already meets or exceeds the rated current limit of the circuit breaker.

    It is also important to understand that circuit breakers are not designed to frequently interrupt large loads and incur wear every time they have to interrupt a heavy load (switching off with no significant load does not incur much wear as it is the arc flash that causes the main wear) so if a breaker is tripping regularly then the issue must be corrected to eliminate the overload that is causing the trips...and at some point the circuit breaker itself may need to be replaced so that it is once more less prone to nuisance trips from brief overloads since they do incur wear and tear.

    I hope this helps the OP resolve their issue as electrical, like most subjects, does have a significant learning curve if you are not regularly immersed in the field.

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  17. #30
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    Re: HF now in Cary

    Ethan sorry I don't mean to sound like a #### some of what you said is correct but most of it falls under Brandolini's law.
    And contrary to popular belief breakers usually fail by tripping at a higher amperage than lower.
    I stand by my comments get the name plate info off the motor and get some amp readings.


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