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    Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    As some of you here might already know, I do a good bit of re-saw work on my 20" Delta BS. It's an old one but the bearings and motor have been rebuilt a couple of times along a schedule I understand and find reasonable.

    The trouble area for me are the tires for the old Delta BS wheels. Finding the old black rubber tires and gluing them down is work. Done it.

    On this last change over, I decided to go with the urethane on the 20 inch after installing them on the 14" was so easy and they seemed to work well.

    Well after a couple years, I notice a small rhythmic vibration that I have not felt or heard before.

    I check the blade is centered, make sure the tires are clean, re check the cool blocks and bearing wheels for any misalignment.. nothing.

    Still have the small vibration. Check the tires again and they don't seem terribly tight. Both top and bottom are NOT tight like the day I struggled to get them on. Note: I did not use heat of any kind to stretch the urethane tires while doing the install. Heard others had troubles down the road.

    Now I am going to do a couple things I don't like to do but I just have to see the tires in motion. Yes I am going to take the wheel cover and open it while the bandsaw is running. I did this after checking very carefully that the tires were dead center and no drift.

    These photos below are taken with the wheels in motion. Top wheel is driven and bottom wheel is the driver. I will refer to the point of my concern with reference to clock positions.



    In photo 1 above, you can see a tire gap begin to open after it leaves the blade contact point at 3 oclock. It becomes very obvious at the 5 oclock position and just sags between 6-7 oclock. Notice is closes again at 9 position as the blade bears down on the tire. Wow not good.



    In photo 2 you see a closer look at the gap shown in photo 1. The only reason the tire stays on is the small center groove in the wheel where the tire guide fits in. These tires are very expensive and they are design for the Delta wheel. The are NOT FLAT on the inside like the cheaper tires.



    In photo 3 I am showing the bottom wheel. This is driven by the motor in a clockwards motion as you look at the photo. Notice the gap between the wheel and tire from 12 o'c till it reaches the blade at 3 o'c.





    Looking at this I am faced with a couple questions. After 2 years should I expect more from a set of tires that cost 250 dollars? Does this seem like a material defect to others here or am I off track?

    I am going to call the supplier who sold it to me and see what he thinks. This will be a journey.

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    Ouch I just checked mine on my Hammer N4400 and I do not see that happening. The tires on the Hammer are black urethane assumably made in Europe.

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    I've seen this problem many times with urethane tires on various band saws. The wheels on that 28-350 saw have always been a problem because of the groove in the wheel of most (but not all) variations of that model machine. I'll be interested to hear the outcome of the conversation with the supplier.

    The Delta original tires intended for that machine haven't been available for a long time. They were pretty good at lasting. The original reason for that groove was to accommodate the Carter Jiffy tire that had a steel band in it. That didn't last and was replaced by the Delta Texin poly tire that would last for about 30 years then let go. (lots of stories about that event).

    If I were faced with that problem, I'd probably find some way to fill the middle with a rubber strip and then glue on rubber tires, crown them, and get back to using the saw. Other than the tire problem, that's an excellent band saw.



    The above is a Carter Jiffy tire showing the internal steel band. The wheel is from a Yates American J120 band saw that is very similar to the Delta 28-350. This rubber and steel tire held well and was only replaced when the rubber wore so thin it could not be re-crowned.

    While all this history won't help in solving your current problem, it may be enlightening as to where things came from.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    Well after a couple years, I notice a small rhythmic vibration that I have not felt or heard before.
    Does the saw still cut and track well despite this strange behavior?

    It'll be interesting what you hear from the supplier.
    Last edited by Jeff; 10-11-2018 at 10:57 AM.

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    Well Bob
    I have talked with the tire maker and he is willing to work something out if I send the tires back to him in Florida. I sent him the pictures that I posted here on the forum and he told me if he didn't see that he would not have believed it.

    I'm not so sure this is the first time he's heard about urethane tires stretching. I'm not in a position to argue with the judge or the jury here I'm hoping to get back to cutting again.

    The funny part of watching this tire continue to operate is that it stays on the wheel for one reason: the groove helps it track or off she would go with the blade and the big bang.

    Rick at Sulphur Grove thinks the stretching came from overheating the tires. I'm a little hesitant on that one. The model 28-350 as originally sold, came with a big motor but only 1hp. Thru a wire system that throws the switch off if it is working too hard, I have not pushed this saw like a commercial shop.

    I took the urethane tires off in less than 10 minutes with my hands. I didn't even use the dowel or screwdriver it was so loose.

    Rick at SG said that they can cut it and re-glue the tire as a repair option and I said I would insist on different materials -- newer at least with the thought that it might have been from a bad batch of urethane?

    Putting tires on this machine is NO FUN. The bottom wheel does not come off the shaft. You have to pull the entire bottom end apart. I called some guys I trust on the phone who repair and sell these machines up in New England and they told me if I break the aluminum wheel just push the rest of the machine out to the curb. Wheels for the old Delta are like hen's teeth.

    So.. I'm off to the USPS to mail the tires to Sulphur Grove Tool in Florida today. I'm in the rifle repair/refresh timeframe so I have things to do in the shop as wait to hear.

    If you know a good source for rubber tires that are reliable, let me know. I might have to drop back and start over if the only solution they offer is cutting my old tires and re-gluing.

    I'll post some details as things develop.

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    I'm with you on thinking the "overheating" speculation is a spurious attempt to deflect responsibility.

    Bobby Knourek of Woodworkers Tool Works has a great deal of experience with these tires. It may be that he can come up with a viable solution.

    This tire business is a real weak point on an otherwise superior design and build of a 20" band saw. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil S View Post
    Ouch I just checked mine on my Hammer N4400 and I do not see that happening. The tires on the Hammer are black urethane assumably made in Europe.
    Phil
    If they're black, most likely they are rubber. Not 100 percent sure but from comments I got from an expert on repairing tires and wheels told me: "if they are black they are rubber" composition. Mine are orange and lots of others are blue.

    Further news: The guy at Lenox said they have lots of people in the butcher business using their Tri Master carbide blade. It was designed to cut bone not wood. Surprisingly, its the best resaw blade I have ever used and that includes every claim made by Laguna and Timberwolf. They are distant seconds.

    Back to the wheel and tire issue. Talking to a guy at Lenox who supplies blades to an unknown large meat processing shop, he said they use the urethane for safety/cleaning issues. After a while they found the urethane tires lifting off the wheel like the photo above. Meat particles got behind the tire between the wheel and tire. When the wheel stopped spinning the tire closed up and hid the meat particles for a.... time.

    They had so much invested in the urethane, they removed them and cleaned wheels and tires and glued them down after inspection.
    They only use the urethane on bone cutting. All meat is done with rubber as far as he knows.

    What is worth sharing with woodworkers is what I think happened with me. I think.

    I bet my tires have been sagging at high speed for a good while. My tires are not like most of the tires in the 50/ea range. They were 125/ea to fit the Delta 20" wheels with a small channel in the middle of the of the wheel surface. This prevents the tire from coming off as long as there is blade pressure. I think there is good reason to believe this as I have not thrown a blade in years.

    The problem for me is the cost of the blades I use and concerns about loosing a blade at 175/per. Many here prefer to get a cheaper resaw blade and replace it more often. I see the logic here especially if they don't use it much.

    I am sending the tires back to Sulphur Grove Tools today and see what they come up with for a fix.
    Will keep you posted.

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    Urethane tire material color seems to be either orange or blue these days, but that's no guarantee. The original Delta tires for that saw were a type of urethane plastic. I've run across other urethane tires that were black.


    Two urethane tires with the correct diameter rubber tires in the middle. Its obvious that the urethane tires had stretched to a new permanent dimension.


    This is a sequence of deterioration shots of the black urethane tire. After I took these photos, the tire went to the trash.



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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    I ran a set of Sulphur Grove Oranges for YEARS on my Delta 14". Replaced them with another set I had on hand, but I'm going to order a set of BlueMax tires when State Fair is over.

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    With Urethane tires, it is best to fit them immediately out of boiling water. They will retain their initial memory once cooled down. If they are stretched cold, the polymer will stretch permanently.

    Also, with a Urethane tire, if there is a whole lot of blade tension and the saw is left standing for months, the Urethane will creep.

    I have never seen anything as extreme as the photos posted though, makes me wonder if the tires were sized correctly for the application. Mine are impossible to fit if cold.

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/....1002/pat.3366
    Last edited by Willemjm; 10-14-2018 at 09:18 PM.

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    Quote Originally Posted by danmart77 View Post
    .

    Further news: The guy at Lenox said they have lots of people in the butcher business using their Tri Master carbide blade. It was designed to cut bone not wood. Surprisingly, its the best resaw blade I have ever used and that includes every claim made by Laguna and Timberwolf. They are distant seconds.
    The problem for me is the cost of the blades I use and concerns about loosing a blade at 175/per. Many here prefer to get a cheaper resaw blade and replace it more often. I see the logic here especially if they don't use it much.
    I use to use only the Tri-Master for re-sawing, but the blade thickness and wheel diameter on my 17" bandsaw did not agree. They use to stress crack and a pretty penny to replace. I have changed to a thinner and narrower Lenox Diemaster 2 bi-metal at less than a 1/4 of the cost. They last longer (no stress cracking) and re-saw just as good, albeit at a slower feed speed.

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    Quote Originally Posted by Willemjm View Post
    I use to use only the Tri-Master for re-sawing, but the blade thickness and wheel diameter on my 17" bandsaw did not agree. They use to stress crack and a pretty penny to replace. I have changed to a thinner and narrower Lenox Diemaster 2 bi-metal at less than a 1/4 of the cost. They last longer (no stress cracking) and re-saw just as good, albeit at a slower feed speed.
    Well I have not used the Diemaster line as of yet. ??

    The lowest TPI I can get for the 20" wheel is 4tpi with a 1/2" blade. My length is 141" coming in at 54.00 which is a good price.

    Is this the blade you are talking about?

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    Quote Originally Posted by danmart77 View Post
    Well I have not used the Diemaster line as of yet. ??

    The lowest TPI I can get for the 20" wheel is 4tpi with a 1/2" blade. My length is 141" coming in at 54.00 which is a good price.

    Is this the blade you are talking about?
    Yes, but my Grizzly 17" only has a wheel diameter of 16 3/4", so it really limits blade thickness to 0.025 with limited options. For a 20" wheel you can go 0.032". If you had no stress cracking with your Tri-Master (0.035 thick is pushing the envelope for your wheel) I would try a classic pro bi-metal blade 1" wide.

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    We got them. There were definitely stretched enough to cause the issue you had. We are resizing them to the proper circumference.

    Don’t use heat to install them.


    The two things that would cause lift are
    1) running the saw too fast
    2) getting the tires hot.

    Let us know if we can do anything else to help.

    Rick

    Update on the Urethane tires:
    Above you see the response from Rick at Sulphur Grove. He has been quite helpful and quick to share information from his experiences making bandsaw tires for lots of different machines.

    On the phone Rick mentioned the speed of the saw. I will have to go and look again but I run two belts on a pulley system that has only one speed... I think.... ?

    Question out there-- what speed do you try to run the bandsaw at given the choice of rpm settings?

    I will get my tires(cut down and rejoined) in a couple days and will let you know the progress.

    Maybe I need to consider a pulley to slow my speed down while I take the entire bottom wheel out with the shaft? This is a PITA. Not looking forward to this task.

    later
    Last edited by danmart77; 10-16-2018 at 07:13 AM.

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    Re: Bandsaw Tire Troubles: Beware Urethane users

    Both makers of machines that use that grooved tire ran at 4500 feet per minute. The later Delta 20" saws had a bigger pulley on the drive to bring the speed down to 2000 fpm, but that was for non-ferros metals (aluminum) and plastics. That business about running the saw too fast is a clear possibility, but "too fast" would have to be defined as over 900 rpm or over 4600 sfm. That's not likely.

    As to the tires getting hot, there would have to be extreme heat conditions uncomfortable for human occupation before the heat factor got above "normal".

    I sure hope the repair results in a permanent solution.

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