Working with Walnut - LOTS of questions

[max_in_graham]

I have a good supply of walnut that I'm going to be making several things from. While I'm not a complete idiot, I'm not a master craftsman, by any stretch of the imagination, either.

Here's the schedule of things I'm planning on making....

Basic 1x3 and 1x6 trim
A custom "desk" that is loosely based on a hybrid of these;

And a second desk, loosely based on this image;

Now for the questions....

1.) The basic square trim is going to be next to red oak. I'd really like it to pop as a dark wood against light wood. I was hoping that something like a tung oil would do the trick, but I don't know if it would be enough "pop".

The red oak is not stained, nor sealed. It's as natural as it gets. I'd prefer a satin finish for the trim so that it isn't too much of a shiny vs. flat finish... which I think would look kinda' wonky.

2.) I've never tried to make anything like a tabletop from solid lumber, and I'm sure that this isn't anything that's easy to explain on the internut... but is there a trick, or some basic steps not to screw this up too bad? :dontknow:

Or, is there a class that anyone would recommend for a sawdust hack like myself to take to learn the basics of solid top making?

I guess I could use a good plywood and veneer it... but my veneering abilities.... well... lets just say... I can use help there too! :rotflm:

Thanx for ANY help anyone of you fine folks can offer a sawdust duffer like myself.

Max

 

[jhreed]

A BISCUIT JOINER WOULD BE ONE WAY TO MAKE THE SOLID SURFACE. OR, JUST EDGE GLUE IT.

 

[PChristy]

Max, those are going to be some nice desks - can't wait to see what you come up with - My sons' band wants me to make them a box of some kind to put their sound board in:elvis:

 

[max_in_graham]

Thanks for the replies, gents!

Max, those are going to be some nice desks - can't wait to see what you come up with - My sons' band wants me to make them a box of some kind to put their sound board in:elvis:

Phillip,

We commonly call that a "doghouse" case.

Most doghouse cases use 3/4" plywood as the rear "boxing" to support the console when you flip it up vertical to roll it around. (if the board is that big)

Cases are typically made of 3/8"-1/2" CDX with a standard laminate on the outside to protect it, and rigid foam as the liner to protect the console. (The more expensive the gear, the thicker the plywood.)

Extrusions, latches and handles can be fairly expensive. Let me know if you'd like some help locating sources. There's 3 or 4 that are fairly reasonable... and a dozen or so that ain't!... and I mean AIN'T!! (rude prices)

I've made several dozen road cases, including a couple of console cases, so if you have any questions, or if you want some help in planning one... just lemme know. I'd be glad to help!

If it's a small enough console, I actually have a case that they might be interested in... it has a slanted top and room for gear underneath the console, with wheels to roll it all around on.



(Told ya' I got all kinds of questions... an' most of em' are probably prove me dumb as a brick... or at least as goofy as a football bat... :slap: )

I've done some "old school" doweling before... but with limited success. :tinysmile_tongue_t:

I do have a biscuit joiner, so I got that part covered. It's using the thing that's... well.... I bought it a few weeks ago in case I had to join some narrow boards for the walls in the studio, but I lucked out, and haven't had to destroy anything with it yet. :gar-Bi

When I'm gluing up boards to make wider widths, can anyone recommend any rule of thumb for using the right size biscuit?

Watching some of the woodworking shows, I've seen guys like Norm and Marks use biscuit joiners, but I seem to recall that often they don't put them exactly in the middle of the boards. Is that a structural thing, or some kind of personal preference?

I've got a 6" joiner, and that too is getting a decent work out, but getting boards to match perfectly is something that's a bit allusive. Am I recalling it correctly that you shoud put two boards through at the same time, and then flip one to get a good fit?

On a "pseudo" related note... My planer has gotten a major workout milling all the cedar, red oak, and a little bit of the walnut, and I think I'm gettin' a pretty good handle on it, but I've noticed that when I've planed one side down, say... 3 passes, that there's some pretty healthy lines that have appeared on the opposite side... that look like they're from shavings sitting on the bed. They seem to sand out pretty easy, but I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong, or if I'm too ignernt to correct usage of the planer... like taking too much off, too little? or if that's just the way it is, and walnut just shows it more so than oak or cedar.

I've always heard to plane with the grain. With rough milled lumber, you can easily find the grain, but what about once you've gotten the fuzzies off a board? Is there a trick to finding the grain direction in hardwoods, such as walnut?

Can you tell I don't get out too much?

(Sorry to be such a pain)

 

[fergy]

"Doghouse" refers the the area on the back of the audio console case that flips up and covers the snake inputs, not the entire case itself. Usually it's just called a console case. I've got literally hundreds of ATA roadcases like that at the moment. Only a few have doghouses in them.

Your best bet for your son's console case is to just find a used one for sale somewhere. You'll spend more in parts to build it, and you won't be building it right for what he's looking for. It takes some specialized tools and setup to do it.

If you need some rack rail for that desk build, let me know. I think I've got a bunch of it. We've got a few gear racks that we're trying to get rid of at the moment. I've also got a few console cases that may work. Or, if he wants, he can buy one of the used consoles that I need to dump, already in a case. :gar-Bi

 

[Gofor]

Max

From someone with limited experience, but I have made a dining table out of walnut, edge jointing the boards by rub gluing with no biscuits, dowels, splines, etc, and also a workbench edge jointing white oak for which I used splines (first project, so found splines are troublesome as well as way too much work for the desired result). Photos are in my photo gallery: http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/useralbums.php

First step after initial planing is to lay out the boards and identify the "show face" (I mark the back sides with chalk, making a triangle so all the pieces will end up in the right position). All measurements for any dowel or biscuit, etc, are reference from the show face. If the back is not perfectly flat over the whole surface, it really doesn't matter. Areas where cross braces or supports join the top can be flattened and smoothed easily.

Edges should be flat and square with the show face. To check the edges before gluing, clamp the boards vertically, and set the next board on top. It should set there on its own, with no light visible anywhere along the length of the mating edges. If it pivots easily, then there is a high spot where it pivots. Hand plane or sand until the resistance is even. If light shows through, one of the boards will need the high spots removed to close the gap. When you can see no light, and the boards shows good resistance friction against sliding end to end, the joint will be good enough for gluing.

Now clamp the second board and work the second board to third board edge.

As for putting the face surfaces of two boards together and running over the jointer, it's good in theory because any deviation from square in board one is offset by an opposite deviation in board two. In practice, tho, it will not prevent a bow or hollow in both edges, resulting in a failed joint: and if the deviation from square is much at all, the boards will slide off each other when clamped for gluing. Better to concentrate on a straight, flat, square edge.

As for clamping, there are many method. I assembled mine vertically, just using pipe clamps and small clamps on the joint at the ends to keep them flush. As I progressed, I tried cauls, but found they bowed too much to be effective. However, several more talented and knowledgeable than me have posted some good pics on clamping methods, so hopefuly they will jump in with examples.

As for grain orientation: I have found few flat-sawn boards that have the grain running the same direction over any one face, and most have a change in the edge if the board is of any length. Any vestigal knot, etc in the tree's life will cause a grain reversal around that point. As walnut is bad for tear-out, keeping the tools sharp, and using a card scraper when in doubt is about all the advice I can offer.

Hope this helps some or at least stimulates more conversation

Go

 

[max_in_graham]

Hey fergy! You mean there's another fader pusher here?!?!? You'll have to come up this way when I get the doors open!

How much rack rail you willing to part with? Figuring I need somewhere between 56 and 72 spaces.

Kinda' looking for a new 2nd console for the 2nd mobile rig.... don't happen to have a fat loaded XL200, do ya?

 

[fergy]

Hey fergy! You mean there's another fader pusher here?!?!? You'll have to come up this way when I get the doors open!

How much rack rail you willing to part with? Figuring I need somewhere between 56 and 72 spaces.

Kinda' looking for a new 2nd console for the 2nd mobile rig.... don't happen to have a fat loaded XL200, do ya?

I don't push the faders anymore except on rare occasions...I've become the dreaded "M" word...management. We're a big full-service production company specializing in live events, not the studio thing.

We're looking to get rid of a couple of a couple of analog Yamahas...an M2500 and another that I can't remember. Both are cased. The only Midas we've got is a Venice32, but it's too handy to get rid of. We're in need of picking up a couple of M7CLs because we use them for everything we do.

I'll see what we've got in rack rail. I can probably hook you up with some Middle Atlantic rail at wholesale from a buddy, if you want to start from scratch.

 

[max_in_graham]

I don't push the faders anymore except on rare occasions...I've become the dreaded "M" word...management. We're a big full-service production company specializing in live events, not the studio thing.

We're looking to get rid of a couple of a couple of analog Yamahas...an M2500 and another that I can't remember. Both are cased. The only Midas we've got is a Venice32, but it's too handy to get rid of. We're in need of picking up a couple of M7CLs because we use them for everything we do.

I'll see what we've got in rack rail. I can probably hook you up with some Middle Atlantic rail at wholesale from a buddy, if you want to start from scratch.

Used to run w/RQP... had to give it up, though.

Figger'd you were in production... won't hold the M thing against ya'... Heck, I'm M too... and carpenter... and landscaper... and A1... and A2... and tech... and janitor!

I like the Venice... a LOT easier to deal with than a 3K or an XL, that's for sure! (like at least 300lbs worth of easier) I just like the idea of old XL's for mobile tracking. Those pre's and EQ are just plain magnificent. If you hear about anyone that's gonna fire sale one, lemme know!

I might know someone interested in an M2500. I'll double check and let you know.

If you don't mind, lemme' know what you find in the way of rack rails. Might have to holler' atcha if I run short on 19" plates. Most folks like SE won't keep enough in stock, and I might run em' dry, so I appreciate the offer!!!

If you get in a pinch, gimme a shout... I've done FOH/Mons with the Mac's and the KF750 rigs.

 

[max_in_graham]

Go,

I was really wondering about how running two boards through at the same time would work. Thank you for clearing that up!

So, careful and square it is!

Any thoughts on the use of Tung Oil vs any other type of finish?

Again, thanks!

 

[fergy]

Used to run w/RQP... had to give it up, though.


If you don't mind, lemme' know what you find in the way of rack rails. Might have to holler' atcha if I run short on 19" plates. Most folks like SE won't keep enough in stock, and I might run em' dry, so I appreciate the offer!!!

Looking at what I've got...we've got a bunch of metal install racks / server racks, but several of them have removable faceframes, so they would actually work for your purpose if you build carefully. You'd have to cut them down to size, but there's a bunch of free metal here, so if your time is worth it they'd be simple enough to use for this purpose. It doesn't seem that we've got any loose rack rail.

As for rack plate, I don't think I've got any of that that I can spare at the moment, since we tend to hold on to that for weird panels that we need to make.

 

[Gofor]

Sorry for the delay. Life gets in the way sometimes! As for "Tung oil", I have never used it, altho I have used some of the concoctions labeled "Tung oil" in the Borgs, which are actually varnish mixed with some other oils. Personally, I didn't care for the results. I have had good luck with wipe on finishes both: 1 to 1 to 1 (colons don"t work in this scenario as they give a :1: icon) ratio of poly, boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits (linseed oil adds some amber): Wiping varnish of 1:1 ratio poly or Behlens table top varnish mixed with mineral spirits; and straight Behlens table top varnish.

As for quality of material when applying the finish (i.e. lack of trapping bubbles, good flow and leveling), the Behlens wins hands down in all categories. Straight or thinned, it is easy to work with and gives a great finish. Problem is that it is dark, so will alter the hue somewhat, is expensive, and the table top finish only comes in high gloss. If brushing full strength on a large surface such as a table, you will need a good quality bristle brush, and some experience in brush coating. If you do not know what "tipping out" means, you may want to stay with wipe-on.

For the poly items, I used minwax varathane poly from Lowe's. It will trap bubbles very readily, despite the quality of brush used, so I usually thin it for a wipe on. I use high gloss for most of the base coats, and use the semi-gloss or satin for the last two wipe-on coats to tone down the gloss as desired. Without linseed oil, I have seen little darkening, altho I am told it will yellow with age. I have seen little of this in pieces I did three years ago.

As for durability, both have done well for the pieces I have done over the past 3 years. The Behlens, however, was used for a table that gets daily use and is not protected by a table cloth. It is holding up spectacularly. The minwax poly items are book cases, DVD racks, end tables, etc, and are also doing fine, but get much less abuse.

That's pretty much my experience with indoor furniture finishes, so hopefully, the shellac, oil, and water-based experts will chime in here. Sorry I can't help more

Go

 

[max_in_graham]

Looking at what I've got...we've got a bunch of metal install racks / server racks, but several of them have removable faceframes, so they would actually work for your purpose if you build carefully. You'd have to cut them down to size, but there's a bunch of free metal here, so if your time is worth it they'd be simple enough to use for this purpose. It doesn't seem that we've got any loose rack rail.

As for rack plate, I don't think I've got any of that that I can spare at the moment, since we tend to hold on to that for weird panels that we need to make.

Unnerstood about the rack plates... all too well! There just isn't anything called "spare" rack plates, are there?? :dontknow:

At this stage of the "end game", if you're offering free metal... I'M ON IT! :mrgreen: Just gimme a time and location, and I'll be there! (as long as it's not today... I lost the brakes on my Ford Excessive Saturday, and she's at the dealer's gettin' fixed.) Seems a brake line burst down by the front left caliper.... :BangHead:

Thanx!!!!
Max

 

[max_in_graham]

Sorry for the delay. Life gets in the way sometimes!

No problem! You see how long it's taken me to reply to your reply doncha? :gar-Bi

As for "Tung oil"....

I've used a "better" grade of Tung Oil that I purchased from WWS before. So, I stopped in there Saturday morning to get some, and a bit of advice too. They were out of Tung Oil, but I spoke to a couple of guys who have used the Watco Danish Oil.

I want everyone to know, ESPECIALLY TheBoss©, that I exercised SERIOUS restraint, and ONLY bought the Danish Oil, and nothing else..... :eusa_naug She was actually stunned that I managed to get out of there w/o purchasing any new toys! (Frankly, so am I!)

Since I'm not finishing the the red oak that's on the walls and ceiling, I don't want a gloss finish on the walnut. I would really prefer a flat to satin finish for the trim. So, they let me know that the Danish Oil, when hand ragged, would be a flat finish that makes a pretty hard finish, I opted to go that route.

I tried some test scrap pieces, and it looked good. I then put some on a couple of pieces of the actual trim... and it really makes that walnut "pop" out against the oak.... It should end up being a very handsome room.

I've done a lot of antique restoration and furniture refinishing, so I'm used to tipping out and dealing with poly and the infamous air bubble issue. I still get those *&^$! bubbles on occasion, but for the most part I've figured out how to prevent em'.

When I go to make the console and producer desks, I think I should probably avoid shellac's and lacquers. It's fairly common for guys to have hot and cold drinks with them at the producer's desk, and I'm concerned that I'd end up with rings. (You can hand em' coasters all day long, but that doesn't mean they'll use em.)

A buddy of mine suggested looking for a type of poly that's the REALLY thick stuff that many contractor's and manufacturers use for things like restaurant tables. It practically encases the tables in a really hard "plastic". I helped a guy use the stuff one time... a LONG time ago. Sadly, neither my friend or I can remember what the stuff is called or who manufactures it.

It seems like a viable option if I can find it. If not, I'm thinkin' (OOOOPS... is that a smoke detector going off?!? :rotflm that Spar urethane might be the way to go... any opinions?

Thanx again!
Max

 

[dkeller_nc]

Max - Not sure if I understand correctly, but if you've already used the Watco Danish Oil (which is an oil and varnish mix, btw. The oil is linseed), you cannot directly apply polyurethane over it - it will not adhere sufficiently to prevent bubbling and peeling at a later date.

What I'd suggest is to simply continue to apply coats of the Watco with a rag, let it set for 30 or 45 minutes, and wipe it off. After 3 or 4 applications, you will notice a sheen on the wood (which is a very thin coat of varnish). It will take about a week for this thin layer of varnish to harden to its maximum extent and provide some water resistance.

If you must apply poly over the Watco, you will need to wait the week for the oil/varnish to off-gas sufficiently, then you will need to coat it with at least one coat of 2 lb. cut of dewaxed shellac, followed by the polyurethane.

Personally, I'd just go with the Watco. It won't resist wear, dirt and water as well as a thicker coat of polyurethane, but it's also way, way easier to fix later - just lightly sand with 400 grit paper and re-apply the oil. You can't do that with polyurethane - the subsequent coats will not stick to the initial coats.

 

[max_in_graham]

Utoh... Seems like I've been about as clear as mud here... Sorry for the confuzzlement.

I've actually got two projects for the walnut.

The first is in my tracking room. That room is red oak, with the walnut trim. Since the red oak is not finished, I didn't think that a "gloss"/sheen to the trim would look appropriate, and that's where I'm applying the Watco Danish Oil... probably 2 hand ragged coats.

For the desks, that's where I'd probably want to do the poly...

I hope that makes a bit more sense...

Max