Table apron to legs joinery

[SteveColes]

So far I have seen M &T joinery used for table apron to legs. But tonight I was watching The Router Workshop and they used sliding dovetails instead. They didn't give a reason. That made me remember that I have seen or read somewhere about using sliding dovetails for this type of joinery, but I don't remember why.

Can anybody give me the pros and cons?

 

[DaveO]

It could be due to the large thing on top of the older dude's head:lol: :lol:
But I would choose M&T over the sliding DT for the easy of construction. Also I think that you would get better glue surface with M&T.
My .02, Dave

 

[mkepke]

Unless you pin the M&T, you are depending on a cross-grain glue-joint to keep the joint from opening.

I think it's a concern in this scenario since the table-leg acts like a lever on the joint if/when the table is dragged across the floor.

The sliding dovetail on the other hand is purely mechanical and does not require glue. Cut correctly, the mating action actually puts the joint into tension, ensuring no gap (like the action of a draw-bored M&T).

Tougher to cut tho.

I *suspect* a M&T will carry more shear load before failure, but I have never seen an actual stress-test comparison of the two joints.

-Mark

 

[D L Ames]

Steve, I think the sliding DT would keep the joint from pulling apart. I am not sure about which joint would fail first from a shearing force but as long as you don't plan on doing any table dancing I think the sliding DT would be a great joint for attaching the apron to the legs.

D L

 

[DavidF]

Have a look at the pictures of my coffee table. I put sliding angled DT in the rail leg joins.

 

[lwhughes149]

I look forward to the day when I can consider, "Do I want dovetails or M&T?" As a newbee to woodworking, my next attempt at learning something new will be the dovetails on the drawers for the nightstand I am now making. You may remember I made a ten drawer chest for my daughter. I have modified the chest to become a nightstand. So far so good but it will have dovetail drawers.

 

[DavidF]

Good luck with that - don't forget - no pics, didn't happen:lol:

 

[SteveColes]

Have a look at the pictures of my coffee table. I put sliding angled DT in the rail leg joins.

OK! Now my question is what is the basis for a decsion to go with sliding dovetails vs M & T?

 

[DavidF]

In my case it was a design element as the two interlocked at the top of the leg. Structually, I would say that the DT was better, but having said that, with modern adhesives and the larger gluing area of the M&T I would say that was marginal. As for the making - the DT was easy.

 

[Mountaincraft]

I agree with DaveF. Even with the cross grain of the M&T, the tenon still only tightens up in the mortis in excess moisture. The dovetail will expand out of the top of the joint in a similar fashion. But this movement is small, just don't attach the top to the legs. Another way might be to extend the dovetail below and cover it with a lip from the apron and glue only the top.

Tightbond is so much stronger than necessary, I don't think that it makes any difference, unless it is unfinished and in the pool.:fish:

 

[Ozzie-x]

A couple of years ago, one of the woodworking magazines did a comparison & test of the apron/leg joints. It may have been Fine Woodworking. I remember it being a pretty good article. Maybe somebody remembers the article and can lay hands on it. My old magazines are all boxed up in the attic.
Randy O

 

[DavidF]

Another reason to go either way is whether you want to see the top of the joint. Obviously with the Sliding DT you will see the top, therefore it must be perfectly made. With an M&T you can start the joint 1/2" down from the top and not see it; if you have had to "fiddle" the joint to make it tight only you will know. No such luxury wit the DT, but it does make a nice design feature when you get it right; especially if you do the interlocking type as I did.

 

[dbvilla]

Had I read this thread before I joined this group, I would have struck a match to the table I made and sold all of my equipment. Guys.... there is soooo much for me to learn and only so many hours in a day..... HOLY COW I am almost getting disheartened.
Dawn

 

[DavidF]

Hey, that's WHY you joined the group - we all help out each other. If you need a hand with something or quick informal training course just ask, one of us will certainly offer to help. It's only a way of spending money after all - your're not expected to produce anything:lol:

 

[dbvilla]

But David,
Should I decide to try M &T joinery on a project, couldn't I just use a drill press and jig saw and of course my favorite band saw?
There are soooo many new tools, I have never considered. I would really like to try new things, all the while getting the hang of the tools I have available to me now.

 

[mshel]

Dawn,

If you ever have the chance to look at an older piece of furniture, you will see that in most all cases, the apron was attached to the legs with mortise and tennon. I am talking about hand built furniture here, not factory built. There is a tremendous amount of fine fine furniture out there well over 100 + years old that was constructed this way and it is still solid today. Not all furniture was constructed as exact and some of it was made incorrectly just because the person making it didn't know any better. A case in point, I have repaired a lot of antiques that had splits in the sides of the case which was caused by the maker or someone who may have repaired it throught the years glued the drawer guides or kickers to the sides the full length. This prohibited the wood from its normal expansion and contraction and it had nothing to do but split. Sorry, got off the topic for a sec. So, I guess my .02 will be for mortise and tennon. I do use other methods of joinery depending on the design. Love dovetails and I don't use no fancy smanchey machine. :rolf: Seriously, given time, you will learn when to use a particular type of joint and depending on the piece of furniture you are building, you will probably use several types of joints in it. Whether it be mortise and tennon, dowels, sliding dovetails, biscuits or some other method, you will get many different opinions on which is the best one. The fun part is that you get to do them all and decide for yourself. :icon_thum

Mike

 

[DaveO]

But David,
Should I decide to try M &T joinery on a project, couldn't I just use a drill press and jig saw and of course my favorite band saw?
There are soooo many new tools, I have never considered. I would really like to try new things, all the while getting the hang of the tools I have available to me now.

Yes, you can. It has been done with much less. Use the drill press to remove the majority of the mortise waste and a chisel to clean and square it up. Your tenons can be easily cut on a well tuned bandsaw or very carefully with a jigsaw. There are many easier ways to do this joinery, and many more labor intensive ways. But it was originally done without electricity and by hand.
Dave

 

[DavidF]

Hi Dawn, yes of course you can! if you don't have a router, then a drill press and forsner bits with a good chisel of the right mortise width will take care of the mortise and the bandsaw will make short work of the tenon using the fence and a rear stop block to limit the tenon shoulder length. If you ever need more help, let me know.