QS vs. Rift - Really confused

[CDPeters]

Having done a (very) little sawyering with a portable band mill, I posed a question to Jeff Mills and scsmith on the LARGE Sycamore Tree thread regarding how they mill QS from a log. Being the patient sort of fellow that I am, I started to surf around looking for more information and found conflicting info - so I need ya'lls help.

One site showed this graphic:

which seems to indicate that rift sawn lumber is nearly 90 degrees growth ring to face orientation. But another site gave the following guidance:

Quarter sawn = growth ring to face orientation 75 to 90 degrees
Rift sawn = growth ring to face orientation 45 to 75 degrees

Which is in direct conflict with the above graphic. So which is it? :icon_scra I always thought that the best of the best QS material had the growth rings at 90 degrees to the face.

I guess at the end of the day, it's mostly semantics, since the appearance of the final project is what really counts.

Confused,
C.

 

[bobby g]

Quarter sawn = growth ring to face orientation 75 to 90 degrees
Rift sawn = growth ring to face orientation 45 to 75 degrees
C.

Chris,

I believe the above to be correct. This is how hardwood flooring is separated within a grade.

bobby g

 

[CDPeters]

So -

In an oak for example, QS will present the best exposures of the medullary rays, while RS will present relatively straight grain with little to no ray exposure (all relative to the faces of course).

It seems like maybe it has less to do with how the boards are extracted from the log as it does orientation of the growth rings in each individual board - i.e. grading after the mill as opposed to the method the sawyer used to mill the log.

Sound reasonable?

C.

 

[jerrye]

IIRC, Jeff Mills posted some illustrations some time back that were a bit different on QS technique. He followed a different plan for QS lumber. Might want to search his old posts to see....

 

[scsmith42]

Chris, the reference to "Rift sawn" in your drawing is incorrect. That is actually quartersawn or vertical grain lumber.

The specs that I follow are that quartersawn grain is between 60 - 90 degrees relative to one face, rift is 30 - 60 degrees. Both are also referred to as "vertical grain lumber", although this term is used more frequently with QS versus RS.

Milling technique makes a significant difference in the type of lumber produced. A grade sawyer will approach every log with the desire to produce the highest value lumber from the log, and will mill it accordingly. Emphasizing QS or RS production requires different milling techniques than producing standard flat sawn lumber.

 

[CDPeters]

Thanks Bobby and Scott - that helps alot.

Having only a 14" throat portable band mill (without a carriage system - yet ), I can only do plain sawing effectively, which with careful planning can only yield maybe 2 slabs that will give me decent QS material - and not very wide at that - maybe 5" if I'm lucky.

It would be really cool to visit and see you attack one of those monster logs Scott... maybe one day, if I save up enough kitchen passes :rotflm:
Thanks!
C.

 

[CrealBilly]

This is the traditional (old school) pattern for producing quarter sawn lumber.

As the name suggests it's lumber that is produced from a quarter of the log at a time. It's also interesting to note that there is no set standards for log grading either. However, traditionally logs where/are graded on by the number of clear verse defect log quarters.

Making lumber from logs is a dieing art when it comes to quarter sawing - there are so many modified methods out there today for a sawyer to choose from it'll make your head spin (I understand the confusion).

The short answer is there is no right or wrong way to quarter saw - what counts is the angle in which the grain runs to the faces of a given board.

 

[CarvedTones]

The short answer is there is no right or wrong way to quarter saw - what counts is the angle in which the grain runs to the faces of a given board.

I think this is really the crux of the matter as a buyer. If you are working on something that recommends or requires quartersawn in the plans, then you want to see closely spaced grain lines on the faces that run pretty much straight up and down (parallel with the edges). Rift sawn is nice for square legs because all 4 sides will look pretty much the same - kind of like QS but wider spaced grain running at 45 degrees or so. How the sawyer extracted the wood to get that orientation is interesting, but like Jeff says, there are a few ways it can be accomplished. But even if a piece of wood is technically quarter sawn from the log, if the grain does crazy things I would not want to use it where QS is called for.

 

[Jeff]

It still mystifies me, but I've gained a better understanding after helping Jeff a few years ago. He's good and I'm sorry that he's out of the business. However, we still have a lot of very good sawyers that keep us supplied with quality products. :icon_cheers

The technique varies with the species: See Scott Smith's thread on "Sycamore" and the advice offered by Jeff on how to get a truly QS board from it without a lot of waste. No wonder that QS is more expensive, the waste and set-up all factor in. :thumbs_up

 

[CrealBilly]

I think this is really the crux of the matter as a buyer. If you are working on something that recommends or requires quartersawn in the plans, then you want to see closely spaced grain lines on the faces that run pretty much straight up and down (parallel with the edges). Rift sawn is nice for square legs because all 4 sides will look pretty much the same - kind of like QS but wider spaced grain running at 45 degrees or so. How the sawyer extracted the wood to get that orientation is interesting, but like Jeff says, there are a few ways it can be accomplished. But even if a piece of wood is technically quarter sawn from the log, if the grain does crazy things I would not want to use it where QS is called for.

As for crazy grain - that's not a lot a sawyer can do about it, it's more so how the tree grew. BTW some wood workers prefer crazy grain.

 

[CarvedTones]

As for crazy grain - that's not a lot a sawyer can do about it, it's more so how the tree grew. BTW some wood workers prefer crazy grain.

Yeah, it can look nice. But what I was referring to was plans that call for QS because of expectations about how it will move as humidity changes or vibrate (musical instrument soundboards). I would only use straight clear grain in those cases.

 

[scsmith42]

Thanks Bobby and Scott - that helps alot.

Having only a 14" throat portable band mill (without a carriage system - yet ), I can only do plain sawing effectively, which with careful planning can only yield maybe 2 slabs that will give me decent QS material - and not very wide at that - maybe 5" if I'm lucky.

It would be really cool to visit and see you attack one of those monster logs Scott... maybe one day, if I save up enough kitchen passes :rotflm:
Thanks!
C.

Chris, in addition to the milling pattern that Jeff shared (standard bandmill pattern), another option that you have is to mill your log into thirds. Take the middle section and flat saw it (which will yield vertical grain lumber), and then take the two end sections and flip them 90 degrees, and flat saw. You net vertical grain yield will be around 50% by using this technique.

 

[CDPeters]

...another option that you have is to mill your log into thirds. Take the middle section and flat saw it (which will yield vertical grain lumber), and then take the two end sections and flip them 90 degrees, and flat saw. You net vertical grain yield will be around 50% by using this technique.

Thanks Scott! I suppose I could also take the top and bottom thirds and stand them dogged face to face, just to save on number of cuts (that portable mill is a real workout!:rotflm.
C.

 

[CrealBilly]

Just ran across a few more QS patterns :gar-La;

 

[CrealBilly]

It's also interesting to note, when it comes to QS "appearance" and oak the tighter the grain the longer the flecks will be. In other words a tree that grew under the canopy deep in the forest grows a lot slower in diameter than a tree that grows out in the open in someones yard. I once had a white oak butt log that was no more than 20" diameter and I counted over 175 growth rings. Needless to say it was quarter sawn, The widest board was only 8" after edging the wane and pith but that log produced some of the most flecky lumber I've yet to see. When it comes to sycamore kind of the opposite is true, fast growing sycamore trees with wide growth rings and lots of sapwood produce wider flecks than, slower growing sycamore.

 

[richlife]

Thanks, guys! Very informative even though I've read about all this several times before. But I've never seen so many varied diagrams and the discussion to go with them. Very much puts everything in perspective.

Somehow, this thread should be tagged "Read This" for everyone on NCWW.

Rich

 

[cyclopentadiene]

Just received my October Fine Woodworking in the mail today. They have a nice feature p22 "The Language of the Lumberyard" that does a nice job at describing the subject and many others.

 

[CrealBilly]

Here's a little more information that may be useful ---> https://sites.google.com/site/millscustomsawing/logs-to-lumber-1

 

[Ivey]

Very good Jeff!:thumbs_up

 

[scsmith42]

Jeff, that's a great presentation. Thanks for sharing.

Scott