Pricing while learning and getting into a market

[CarvedTones]

I know this is kinda vague and very general as a topic. Here are some more specifics as it pertains to what I am doing...

I want to make carved body historical musical instruments when I semi-retire in (hopefully) a dozen years or so (I turn 50 late this year).

Here are a couple of pages with prices from an established luthier who makes and sells the types of instruments I am beginning to make:
http://www.rolandinstrument.com/ind/index.php?lang=3
Note those prices are in Euros; in dollars it would be roughly 50% higher, so his prices are from about $900 to about $2300 for the fiddles. This is not top tier; just a reasonably good luthier who has been at it a while.

At the other end of the spectrum, you have this sort of stuff:
http://www.worldmusicalinstruments.com/c-66-rebec.aspx
Those are actually luthier made; the demand isn't high enough for factories to churn these things out. Yes, a lot of that is 3rd world economics but I don't want to go off on that tangent. But it also reflects the quality as well; they don't spend much time tuning the tops or getting the joints perfect.

My point is the first site is an example of what people are willing to pay for quality work and the second is how little you can pay for lower quality. The sad truth is that my work is likely to be a lot closer to the cheap ones than the good ones for a while. It's just not something you can learn to be good at right away.

This is something of a happy medium:
http://larkinthemorning.com/search.asp?t=ss&sb=0&ss=luthier+N+Sweet.

I need to quote a price to someone on a citole almost identical to the one on that page.

I want to make the instrument whether I sell it to the first person asking about it or not, but my preference is certainly to get it out there being played. My material costs are pretty low and I will be slow in delivering it.

Thoughts?

 

[walnutjerry]

First of all get the quality to the point you would buy it yourself. You probably will not get the highest end of the spectrum unless you have an established reputation and known nationally or internationally. Look around in your area, or state and find out what the prices are. Be competitive but do not cut a comparable artisans throat just to sell. Be patient and persistent.

Just my opinion after doing craft shows for 15 years.

Jerry

 

[CaptnA]

start now~ only way to get there is to make that first step
Any examples of your work yet?
You may find through making one where your strengths and weaknesses are and once identified you'll know where to really concentrate.
I have a friend who makes dulcimers. I think his first ones were his best works. He started doing what he thought people wanted instead of what he knew. his sales have really dropped. any correlation? who knows ;but I have my thoughts...

 

[Mike Davis]

First of all you are dealing with a highly specialized and unusually tight knit group of performers. You can't walk in to your local music shop and get this kind of instrument. Your reputation will travel quickly and last a long time.

Lark in the morning has a lot of low end import stuff as we found out when looking foe a harp for my daughter. The $900 ones were so-so, anything less was trash.

We went with a local maker and got a great deal and still spent $thousand$. But, it is the top of the line and admired by the best players.

None of the links you posted are what I consider high end luthiers. My friend in Alabama used to charge $10,000 for a basic violin. That was 20 years ago.

Now, you have to decide if you want to be one among many or the best of the best. And how hard are you willing to work to be the best?

Like Jerry said you have to make instruments that you would buy above anything else and be able to show the customer why you would rather own this instrument than any other.

Then, like Jack Briggs said if you have to ask you can't afford it.

And I say the ones who can afford it won't ask.

If you are serious about building a reputation then you should be willing to throw away your first three builds if need be and only presenting your best work to the customer.

 

[CarvedTones]

You guys are pretty harsh, but probably all correct.

Yes, I have some previous work and some came out good and some not so great. I didn't throw away the early work; i sold it on ebay unlabeled for not very much. Interestingly enough, the guy who wants the quote bought one of the best of the worst - the butterfly tenor:

It holds a tuning well, the frets are properly spaced and the action is good - it's very playable. But the sound was subdued (that's being kind; it almost seemed muffled or constrained) largely due to the huge bridge (one of the many things I did not understand yet) and the multiple inlays on the soundboard. The funny thing is that I was disappointed in it as I was trying to make an instrument that was artsy and the buyer saw it as art that was playble and he loves it.

Anyway, I did clue him in that I am trying to build higher quality instruments and that it would be substantially more than the butterfly tenor and he is still interested in talking further.

He is not part of the early music scene and actually wants a modern tuning and fret spacing. He is not a professional musician. I don't mean that I should feel like I have a lower standard to shoot for, but if I told him I was going to scrap one because it wasn't perfect, I suspect he would want me to send it. He seems interested in "another work by the same artist" (I am paraphrasing, but that is the feeling I got from our most recent exchange of email) if that makes any sense. I guess I should feel pretty good about that. I would feel better about it if I had a higher opinion of the butterfly tenor.

 

[walnutjerry]

You guys are pretty harsh, but probably all correct.




.

LOL----------but Andy, when you reach that plateau of the elite luthiers you can cry all the way to the bank about the harsh posts.:gar-Bi

Jerry

 

[nelsone]

Sounds like a lofty goal! Something to consider would be to barter. The instrument for some hands on training from a luthier with the skills to make the instrument you are striving for. That may be easier said than done, but may be well worth investigating!

 

[Mike Davis]

We could give you the candy coated version, but you wouldn't respect us in the morning. :rotflm:

 

[Makinsawdust]

Experience and experimentation is what it will take to answer your pricing questions. As you become a better maker you will become a better judge of worth. The best way to get more for your work is to make it different than the market place items with equal or better sound quality. In other words stand out by creating your own style. Doing this is just basic marketing and branding. Lots of folks can make copies of what they see but few have the creativity to take it a step further. It took me a few years to discover this but I have found that when I take a piece to that next level the customer seems to not care as much what the price is. In my case, art and craft shows, the customer not knowing if they will ever see another like it results in a sale.
I wish you lots of sales and if you figure out all the secrets to pricing, remember to share with your friends on here. We are still learning.
Rob

 

[junquecol]

Andy, there are several luthiers in the Raleigh area. Check with somebody local music stores. A couple years back, TWA had a young lady from Chapel Hill who make instruments. Over in Woodwinds Industrial Park in Cary is another. Do a "Google" for luthiers in Raleigh / Durham NC and see what pops up.

 

[CarvedTones]

Andy, there are several luthiers in the Raleigh area. Check with somebody local music stores. A couple years back, TWA had a young lady from Chapel Hill who make instruments. Over in Woodwinds Industrial Park in Cary is another. Do a "Google" for luthiers in Raleigh / Durham NC and see what pops up.

Actually, there is a world renoned luthier in Efland who actually builds historic instruments who has invited me to come out sometime and I really need to follow up and do that.

BTW, my earlier comment about the "harsh" replies was referring to the idea of throwing away early builds and accepting nothing less than being top tier.

Accepting no less than my best effort doesn't guarantee that I will get to top tier, especially given my age and current time constraints. One of the things that appeals to me is that it is not an exact science; there is a lot of feel and artistry to making good instruments. The top tier luthiers will not always make sound plates exactly the same thickness from two different boards even though they may be from the same log. They make the right decision about which boards to use for what purpose for reasons that they can't easily explain. Shaping tone bars is a big part of fine tuning an instrument's sound. I am not aiming low, but I will not feel like a failure if I only become good at it and not one of the very best.

When I said I didn't have as high an opinion of the butterfly tenor as the buyer, I did not mean that I was ashamed of it. I am not at all sorry that I did not throw it away. Had I built it to spec for someone expecting higher quality acoustic sound I would not have delivered that one, but I would not have thrown it away.

I am still undecided about how to proceed as far as pricing. As much as I would like to think I can pull it off, my first citole is not likely to be stellar and I have a potential buyer who I don't think wants to pay stellar price. But I don't want to set the bar too low. I am leaning toward proceeding without a set price and just giving him right of first refusal.

 

[Mike Davis]

When I was in the sign business, sometimes I would set a low price to get a job because the rent was past due. The next time the customer expected that same low price even though I was covered up with work and working 20 hours a day.

I didn't mean to insult your work, just pushing you to be the best you can be and to maybe raise your expectation from yourself.

I had a friend who spent the summer he retired painting landscapes. At the end of the summer he asked me to help price his work for an upcoming exhibit. The paintings were breath taking work, really nice and very expensively framed. I asked what he was thinking on the prices and he mentioned maybe $280, $300, $450, $500 and $750 for each one respectively.

I said add a zero to all of them. I knew his audience and knew his reputation with them as a commercial artist of over 30 years. Breaking into fine art was a psychological struggle for him, but the art was not a struggle. He was a great artist.

He took my advice and sold out at the showing. It was the best take from a one man show that the gallery ever had.

So, take my advice with a grain of salt, that's probably all it worth. But, I believe you can do great things and should be equitably rewarded.

Of course, I have a tough time taking my own advice.

 

[CarvedTones]

I didn't feel insulted and I knew you were pushing in a good way. It's a tough balance setting the bar at the right height while learning (and we are always learning). If I decide up front to accept a few flaws and not shoot for low tolerances I will end up with a piece of junk. OTOH, deciding that I will accept nothing less than one of the finest hand crafted instruments ever made is a recipe for frustration. making my best effort and deciding what to do if I encounter a problem at that time seems like the most reasonable course. The hard part is execution if I make a mistake that I can't recover from without compromising quality.

 

[Mike Davis]

The hard part is execution if I make a mistake that I can't recover from without compromising quality.

And that is when you must be able to start over without remorse.

 

[McRabbet]

I have a very good friend who consults in his retirement for corporations, universities and specialized forums all over the world. His field is operations management... When I asked him about pricing my time or my woodwork, he replied with "You'll only know your price is too high if someone questions it". He has had several consults where he was paid $10,000/day plus expenses -- When I worked as a scientific consultant after I retired, I charged $80/hour plus expenses; I normally allow $40/hour on my woodworking and have never had a client balk at my price (my most recent client actually said "Oh, we were prepared to pay more than that!"). As Mike said, if you underprice your work, customers will expect it and they will look for every flaw because they don't think you can charge top dollar.

 

[CarvedTones]

And that is when you must be able to start over without remorse.

Not sure which is harder - part A or part B. :eusa_thin

 

[Trent Mason]

This is a very interesting predicament. I've found myself in this in the past and I'm actually about to be in it again. I've only made things for friends so far, so I like to hook them up, as they do for me at their work. If I were building something for a stranger, I would charge substantially more.

I'm about to build a bar for a coworker of mine. I'm in the same predicament as you are Andy. She is a great friend of mine and has done so much to accomodate my insane schedule issues (two jobs). It would be hard to charge her $40 an hour. I'll probably do it for less as she has helped me out so much in the past. However, if someone inquires about the price, I'll tell her to simply say, "a lot, but it is worth every penny." :icon_thum

 

[Mike Davis]

I was talking to my wife about this tonight and she says there is a huge need for good quality student grade instruments in the $300 to $1000 range. Most beginners can't afford the better grade and they need something better than the cheap imports that are marked up double or triple by the catalog companies.

So if you can build it a little better and sell for the same price you will have great demand.

 

[CarvedTones]

I was talking to my wife about this tonight and she says there is a huge need for good quality student grade instruments in the $300 to $1000 range. Most beginners can't afford the better grade and they need something better than the cheap imports that are marked up double or triple by the catalog companies.

So if you can build it a little better and sell for the same price you will have great demand.

The lower end of that range is a large market for historically inspired instruments - the SCA/Ren Faire crowd. That was my plan for some of my first instuments (seems like "True Confessions" after the way this thread started). Again, I wasn't necessarily planning to build to a lower standard, but I didn't expect them to be top notch either.

 

[Mike Davis]

So, marketing is mostly recognizing a market and providing a product to suit that market.

Nothing wrong with building a business based on a given market. You can grow into the higher end as you get closer to going full time. Some companies provide multiple lines of products each geared to a given target market.

I just picked up a used Applause guitar, its is made by Ovation. Looks just like an Ovation, sounds OK to me and plays pretty well. I think they cost maybe half as much. The point being that they are marketed under a different name to indicate that they are not the same as the ones costing twice as much.

If you can figure out how to differentiate yourself from yourself....:dontknow: