pre-cat lacquer over General Finishes Armour Seal?

[fergy]

For the life of me, I hate GF Armour Seal. It looks great when it's first applied and wet, and then it sucks every bit of floating dust out of the air for miles around. And I still can't figure out how to apply it properly. Is is a "wipe on and leave" or is it a "wipe on and wipe off"? The directions don't say. I've tried wiping off, but it gums like mad.

So, how much trouble am I going to be in if I carefully sand down and spray this with pre-cat lacquer? I should have done that from the start...I know the lacquer isn't going to dissolve what's left of the urethane/oil mixture, but will it stick?

And did I mention this is on a veneered project with tinted danish oil as the base coat?

This project has turned into the world's dumbest finishing schedule.

 

[Robb Parker]

I would not with out first spraying a seal coat of vinyl sealer to seperate. Would probably strip it myself and start over, for peace of mind. And then would still spray 1st coat as vinyl sealer.
Robb
Heritage Woodwright llc

 

[fergy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you usually use vinyl sealer between water-based and oil-based finishes? Since this isn't water-based in any way, and you can use lacquer over oil-based stains as well as other oil-based finishes, would it still require a sealer like that?

That's been my thought process, at least...

 

[BobcatBob]

For the life of me, I hate GF Armour Seal. It looks great when it's first applied and wet, and then it sucks every bit of floating dust out of the air for miles around. And I still can't figure out how to apply it properly. Is is a "wipe on and leave" or is it a "wipe on and wipe off"? The directions don't say. I've tried wiping off, but it gums like mad.

So, how much trouble am I going to be in if I carefully sand down and spray this with pre-cat lacquer? I should have done that from the start...I know the lacquer isn't going to dissolve what's left of the urethane/oil mixture, but will it stick?

And did I mention this is on a veneered project with tinted danish oil as the base coat?

This project has turned into the world's dumbest finishing schedule.

Check out this web site for info on the Arm-R-Seal:
http://www.generalfinishes.com/msds-data/GF-Arm-R-Seal_Data_Sheet-062905.pdf

The 2nd page talks about top copating it with pre-cat lacquer. Hope this helps.

 

[fergy]

So I see that I can use a solvent finish on it, unless I'm reading all of that wrong.

Also, yet again, it says to wipe on and let soak in...that doesn't seem to work when you apply it over an oil finish. It "tacks" way too quickly and you wind up pushing a bunch of goo around the surface.

Or am I totally missing something here? What am I doing wrong with this stuff?

I guess I can try spraying this in very fine coats as well.

And what are those of you who use varnishes doing to control dust? This stuff seems to have a static charge.

 

[cpowell]

My personal experience with arm-r-seal is that it attracts dust and looks like crap until the third coat. The third coat is not good enough but looks much better than coat 1 or 2. Between coat 3 and 4, it suddenly looks very good. Open cut 220 grain paper will remove the dust nibs just fine.

I like to spray lacquer but if the piece will see water/other liquids and a lot of friction or wear/tear (coffee table for my daughter, etc) the poly just makes sense to me.

Oh, the 4 coat estimate is for walnut, red oak takes 5 to look very cool...at least that is my experience.

I have only wiped it on, which sux times 10.

I don't mean for this to sound completely pessimistic. If you have the patience you will be rewarded. Let the dust settle, don't do ANY work in the finish area, wait for the several base coats to build. It really provides a great finish.

Here's a shot of my daughter's coffee table. I don't prefer the style but she hand picked it. The grain is fantastic but the finish is bullet proof. That's the only reason I use a finish as aggravating as poly.

Chuck

 

[fergy]

Phew, you made me feel better. I'm not the only one who thinks wiping it on sucks.

Are you wiping off, or just leaving the film on?

I've done two other pieces with it. I remembered doing four coats on them, but I thought it was smoother over the entire process.

This project is the first one where I've prefinished portions prior to glue-up, so I was starting to get really worried.

 

[Robb Parker]

Fergy- Don't have a lot of experience with the mfg your using but even on the msds sheet Bob references says if your not using their finishes use of vinyl recommended (and their typical out of testing anyone elses finishes for compatibility). Not saying it won't work but! We spray mostly CV's due to the problems of open time and dust issues your having and we have a fairly controlled enviro and spray booth. We almost always seal oil stains and sandwich glazes between vinyl. Cheap insurance and no adhesion problems ever this way. That said, we use a lot of NRG stains and dyes. I never mix WB, oil or laq in the same finish schedule with or without vinyl, my opinion- asking for trouble! Don't know the chemistry of arm seal, msds little skinny in that regards but would assume it's a much "softer" finish than pre cat or CV. I don't reccommend putting a hard finish over a soft finish. Hope that helps and explains my reasoning.
Robb

 

[cpowell]

I think the trick is to be patient...and I don't have any of those genes. :gar-La;

I try to wipe gently to prevent runs on the vertical sections. The top (horizontal) sections will self level pretty well, even if the coat is thick. I try to stop wiping before it tacks up and leaves marks.


Chuck

 

[fergy]

Robb: thanks, that does help a bit. I've never sprayed vinyls before, so I'm just wary of trying one more new thing on this. I'll definately try it in the future.

Chuck: thanks, it's nice to see someone else with lack of patience like me. What are you using to apply the AS? I've tried several things, but I keep coming back to pieces of clean foam.

In the first couple of coats, is it steaky, or are you getting a solid fluid covering? I was getting streaks (application too thin, I think) with rolled up cloth.

 

[cpowell]

I bow to Robb on finishing expertise. I make a few pieces a year. I have worked with arm-r-seal though. Streaks for me too.

I hate foam for application. I use cotton t-shirt material.

I really believe the older arm-r-seal was much thicker and they have thinned it out (cost savings) in more recent years. With thinned product, I just wipe on a few coats of gloss, wipe down with open cut 220 grit to level, one more coat gloss, then apply final coat of satin. The "really bites" part of poly is the day wait between topcoats.

For RO or walnut this finish schedule will not fill the grain but I don't care for filled grain on open grained wood. I believe I am in the minority with this opinion though.

I digress...suck it up and apply a few more coats then please post pics so we can see how cool it turned out. :gar-Bi


Chuck