PM2000 now or Sawstop later?

[rywilson]

Looking for some opinions.... Currently I have a not so nice TS. It was a gift and has served its purpose to now but its time to move on.

I've decided that I'm going to go with a TS with a riving knife. I'm in a position now to purchase a PM2000 or I could wait for an undetermined time and get a Sawstop.

If I purchase the PM2000 now, how do they hold their value?
I know that I will take a certain amount of a loss if I turn around and sell it in a year or so but how bad will it be?

Anybody else gone through this? If so what did you do?

 

[JimmyC]

If you're looking for an investment, don't buy new power tools. They will all drop in price. If you really want a riving knife you have the choice of buying new, or waiting a few years until used ones hit the market at 50-75% of new cost. Right now there's a nice used General for sale

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13336

and a nice new/used Jet for sale

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/ppclass/showproduct.php?product=278

on this website, but neither have riving. Both are great values.

Good luck,
Jimmy

 

[Badabing]

Ryan, my advice to you is wait. Not to get the SawStop, but to get a deal on the PM2000. Don't get me wrong, the SawStop is an awesome machine. However, it costs about 50% more than the PM2000 (unless you get the new contractor model).

You won't see any sales or special deals on the SawStop, believe me I waited and it never happened. However, Powermatic will offer special offers and you may get a deal from a retailer too. I bought my PM2000 in November when Woodcraft had a special at the same time that Powermatic offered a rebate.

Hope that helps. PM me if you want more info.

 

[LeeNC]

Personally, I will upgrade to a Sawstop at some point in time. Not getting into the debate too much, but one trip to the hospital avoided would more than cover the additional cost of the saw. If you need all 10 to make your living it is a no brainer too me. I have seen them come up for sale in shop closing and estate auctions every once in a while.
Disclaimer: This is my opinion, your are entitled to your own, but mine is THE OPINION.:nah::slap::gar-Bi

LeeNC

 

[rywilson]

I have seen them come up for sale in shop closing and estate auctions every once in a while.
LeeNC

Are you referring to Sawstops or just table saws in general?

Where can I found more information about this?

 

[LeeNC]

Sawstops. Usually they have been buried in the list of items for an auction. There are several auction houses in the Charlotte area that have websites and list items coming up for sale/auction. Not as common as older Unisaws and PM66s. I do not have any specific ones at this time but Google could probably find a few to watch. I do not have time on the weekends to go to auction so I did not bother to link to any of the sights that I have seen them on. I am not saying that they are common, but I have seen a few over the last couple of years. Oh, and I don’t have the funds to get one, even used, any time soon.
Lee

 

[WoodWrangler]

Personally, I will upgrade to a Sawstop at some point in time. Not getting into the debate too much, but one trip to the hospital avoided would more than cover the additional cost of the saw. If you need all 10 to make your living it is a no brainer too me. I have seen them come up for sale in shop closing and estate auctions every once in a while.
Disclaimer: This is my opinion, your are entitled to your own, but mine is THE OPINION.:nah::slap::gar-Bi

LeeNC

It is a debate of some sort, but usually only because of the dollars ... and for that same reason people will debate many things ... cheap stanley planes or expensive lie nielsens ... cheap harbor freight chisels or expensive crown ...

But I have to agree with Lee ... one "accident" and the saw pays for itself. In the overall cost of a real woodworking shop, that extra money really isn't much of a big deal to most (as they say, a bit more than a drop in the bucket but less than surgery).

I have the SawStop and it's a great saw -- equally compared to the PM2000 from anything I've seen or read. And while both are good, I'd wait a couple more months and get the safety features built into the SawStop.

I found mine new-used and got it for $500 less than new-new. It was still on the crate and had never been assembled. Deals can be found, but a quick trigger finger must be used and keen eyes.

 

[JimmyC]

I saw the Sawstop in action last week at Klingspor, it was phenomenal:eusa_clap. I agree with the safety and all. But to say that the money doesn't make a big difference in the scheme of things, ie. overall woodshp cost is not true:eusa_naug. The Sawstop is $3,000, an amount that I will probably never have ( to spend on a tool) during my wood working days. My Jet cabinet saw cost me $1300 ten years ago, I had a good income and no children and still had to scrimp and save for it. I know the safety arguement about what the cost of a lost finger is, but if I go by that logic, then I should look to buy a Ford F-350 w/ king cab to drive my family around, because anything less and I could get killed in an accident:dontknow:. Don't tell me how much better the odds are for me losing a finger over being killed in a car accident. Because liers figure, and figures lie.

Just my .02

Jimmy

ps. If you can afford the Sawstop buy it, but it still won't retain it's value any better than any other saw.

 

[WoodWrangler]

If you can afford the Sawstop buy it, but it still won't retain it's value any better than any other saw.

None of my tools seem to hold their value great ... that's for sure! So DON'T plan on getting rid of it!


As for shop cost ... I may have over-spoken as I know each shop is different, but in a modern shop paid for TODAY it ain't cheap! Woodworking is MUCH more expensive than I thought it would be when I got into it!

 

[JimmyC]

Woodworking is MUCH more expensive than I thought it would be when I got into it!

Amen Brother !

Jimmy

 

[Bas]

The PM2000 will hold its value reasonably well, but you're going to take a big hit if you only keep it a year. You can expect to recoup 60%. After three years, expect to recoup 50%. In other words, the biggest drop happens as soon as you take the saw off the pallet. That makes sense of course. Would you buy a new table saw for $2000, or that same one used for $1600, without warranty, not shiny, not knowing what's been done to it? Probably not. Would you buy it for $1200? Much more likely.

I saw the demo Jimmy mentioned as well. Definitely impressive. If I spent any significant amount of time in the shop, I'd probably get one for the peace of mind. At some point, statistics take over. But, if you're like me and are lucky to squeeze in half a Saturday and a few hours during the week, then that investment may not be worth it.

I think the SawStop is one of those machines you either know you gotta have despite the cost, or something you'd never buy because it's too expensive. I had that with the Grr Rippers, spent $100 for what are essentially glorified push blocks. But, the safety features were enough to overcome my normal cheap nature.

Oh, and remember - this is a luxury problem! Buying a PM2000 now or SawStop in the future. To replace a table saw that was a gift. Is life great or what? :eusa_danc

 

[MrAudio815]

Hey Jimmy Coull and Ryan and everyone else,

I actually planned on buying the PM2000 or Saw stop two weeks ago. I also saw the demo and was very impressed and also thought, Why the heck would I have my finger that close to the blade, ever? My uncle tought me to imagine cutting off your finger before you ever step into the shop so that you are on guard and realize it can happen if your stupid or tired. Aslo I asked Paul how much it would be for the Saw stop setup and it came to $3,800 not $3000, thats just the TS. Where as the PM2000 for $2300 plus 10% off at klingspor if it's still going ($2070 total +tax) plus some free jet clamps, (very nice by the way) an extension table, casters to lift the heavy beast, a nice fence, and rails. So thats almost $1,800 dollars cheaper and wow think how many tools you can buy with that??? :eusa_dancOr one more really nice machine! I ended up buying the PM2000 and love it so far. Plus the customer service is great, they will even have someone come to your house and fix your machine if something ever happens. Yup thats what I said.

Welp have fun deciding, it's hard when you have all these opinions, isn't it!!!

Have a great weekend,:smile:

Matthew & Rachel
Custom Home Audio
M&R Audio

 

[rywilson]

Thanks guys for al the feedback. Oh I'm so confused :wsmile:

I spoke with the LOML last night and she told me to just go out and get the PM2000 now. This way I can actually start building things and also afford to buy the material to build things.

As Mathew pointed out the difference between price is more around 2000 when you look at the all the options including the mobile base extra cartridge for dados etc....

If I go with the PM2000 what safety accessories should I look into?
Obviously push stick but what about anything else?

 

[LeeNC]

Good choice. It really is about what works bets for you and your family. Use it in good health. As was mentioned, good technique and paying attention to the task a hand is the most important safety feature you can bring to the shop.

Lee

 

[WoodWrangler]

Thanks guys for al the feedback. Oh I'm so confused :wsmile:

I spoke with the LOML last night and she told me to just go out and get the PM2000 now. This way I can actually start building things and also afford to buy the material to build things.

As Mathew pointed out the difference between price is more around 2000 when you look at the all the options including the mobile base extra cartridge for dados etc....

If I go with the PM2000 what safety accessories should I look into?
Obviously push stick but what about anything else?

You couldn't really pick a loser in that combo ...

I started with a Jet to get things started too ... because money WAS a consideration (and concern that I might not like WWing as much as I thought I did). However, after three years and a VERY BAD kickback that put my entire hand within an inch of the blade (as the board kicked back) ... and then about two months later I accidentally sunk a hand chisel into my thumb (which cost $2,500), I decided to (1) get a SawStop and take advantage of technology innovations and (2) invest in other safety things (like the GRRRIPPPER thing).

Good luck ... you'll surely love the saw.

 

[MrAudio815]

Thanks guys for al the feedback. Oh I'm so confused :wsmile:

I spoke with the LOML last night and she told me to just go out and get the PM2000 now. This way I can actually start building things and also afford to buy the material to build things.

As Mathew pointed out the difference between price is more around 2000 when you look at the all the options including the mobile base extra cartridge for dados etc....

If I go with the PM2000 what safety accessories should I look into?
Obviously push stick but what about anything else?

Hey Ryan, :icon_thum:eusa_clap:icon_thum:eusa_clap

Rockler.com always has packaged deals on safety accessories for anything really and at a good price, plus theres Harborfrieght.com for other things like wood clamps

for $3.00, not sure how good they are just saw the cheap price? The PM2000 does come with a Black plastic push stick by the way. Oh one accessory I do recommend is a dust collector, at least 1 1/2 hp. One of the guys at Klingspor told me someone just got allergic to a certain wood. I didn't know that could happen, but it makes sense, since we are breathing it in.

Welp good luck. :icon_thum
Have fun with the PM2000 I know you'll love it.:eusa_clap:icon_chee:eusa_danc

Matthew & Rachel
Custom Home Audio
M&R Audio

 

[JackLeg]

I agree with Bas about the Grrrippers. Enough that I bought one yesterday. Almost every guy doing demo's was using them. The Freud guys especially. Sold me!

 

[MrAudio815]

I agree with Bas about the Grrrippers. Enough that I bought one yesterday. Almost every guy doing demo's was using them. The Freud guys especially. Sold me!

What does a Grrripper look like by the way?:rotflm::dontknow::icon_scra:eusa_thin


Matthew & Rachel
Custom Home Audio
M&R Audio

 

[DaveO]

Matt, check out this link - http://www.microjig.com/GRR-Ripper.htm


HTH,
Dave

 

[cpowell]

I would have a Sawstop if money were no object. But, money matters to me. I have a Unisaw.

If you always pay attention to what you are doing the PM2000 will be extremely safe.

A lot of TS accidents come from kickbacks, lack of focus ("didn't notice where my hands were"), unsafe acts (listen to that little voice in your head).

If you are using a low end TS then you can likely stall the blade if the stock binds, but that will probably NOT be possible on a 3HP TS - you just can't hold it back, or at least I can't.

Kickbacks can be avoided using proper technique. I have gotten in the habit of only ripping dimensioned stock on the TS. I rough rip stock on the BS, then face joint on the jointer, plane to thickness, edge joint for a reference edge to place against the TS fence. If the stock is FLAT and you have a STRAIGHT reference edge it goes a long way toward minimizing binding between TS fence and blade.

Binding is still possible on wood that is under internal stress then releases when you rip along the grain, causing a bend which can create the binding. You need to be cognizant of this possibility as you rip and halt operation, rather than trying to force the stock through. It helps to have a STOP pushbutton or paddle that you can hit with your knee if you run into trouble.

Ripping with a dull blade is also a problem. When you feed stock through a dull blade the stock will tend to move away from the fence as it passes the blade. I realize you will have a riving knife to limit travel if it is PERFECTLY aligned with the "fence side" of the blade but you should be aware of the tendency of the stock to move toward the blade. While the use of featherboards on the waste side of the stock will keep the wood registered against the fence on the infeed side of the blade it's up to you to apply force to keep the stock against the fence.

I have had a few kickbacks on my TS and fortunately my hands were NOT in a dangerous area.

An outfeed table is pretty simple to add and will give you additional benefits. The outfeed table will allow you to push the stock through following a cut so you don't have to reach across the blade.

As a final note I always make a habit of focusing on each cut, especially on repetitive operations, such as ripping rails and stiles for a large carcass. Treat each cut like it's the first cut.

I realize this post is not an endorsement of either option under consideration (both are very good saws) but hope that it helps you to understand how to minimize the risk of a TS accident.


Chuck