Northumbrian bagpipe update

[johnpipe108]

My original thread has been closed, so I've opened a new one. Since I've retrieved my band-saw and drill press I've been able to return to work on the bagpipe project. I mounted a piece of mammoth ivory to the chanter, though I made errors on selection when I made the bass drone and switched the pieces, so the chanter has a smaller sole than it ought to.

The main-stock supports 3 drones, and has a hollow interior. One should not drill the holes before turning and hollowing the object (DAMHIKT!) :embarrassed:

The drone-socket end needs a brass ferrule, but it is 1-3/8-inch diameter which is not a standard tubing size, so I will have to ask on the bagpipe forum for someone who can roll and silver-solder one for me.

I have one baritone drone lower ("standing") part complete, and am starting the outer end; that and the stock will complete the main parts, leaving only the bellows and bag to put the pipes almost ready to play. I previously completed the tenor and bass drones, and the various other stocks and the blowpipe.

Here's an old shot of the other pieces; the house-shaped block in the back is the main-stock wood.

regards, John

 

[CarvedTones]

Here is a link to the original thread for those interested:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/forums/f32/northumbrian-bagpipe-project-wip-29715-post295973/

Looking good!

One should not drill the holes before turning and hollowing the object (DAMHIKT!) :embarrassed:

I will go a step further from my recent woodwind experiences and add that even cutting to length is dicey. There is a bunch of science behind using bore diameter, wall thickness, tube length and hole placement to determine pitch, but the reality is that just gets you close. If you want tuning dead on, you have to start a little long and carefully shorten checking bell tone on a tuner each time you take a little off.

 

[Trent Mason]

Looks great John! :eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap I don't know how you and Andy do it. Just making a piece of furniture is a big enough challenge for me. :swoon: I guarantee you if I ever make something that plays music, it was probably the result of a lose joint. :gar-La;

 

[sushinutnc]

:gar-Cr Dangit... you're in CA. I would love to see this when finished. I was at Tir Na Nog (Irish pub/Raleigh) last December, and two pipers from the local "Wake & District Public Safety Pipes and Drums" were there. I always wanted to see how these things worked. Got a guided tour, inside and out, for me and my son. :icon_thum

 

[johnpipe108]

Here is a link to the original thread for those interested:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/forums/f32/northumbrian-bagpipe-project-wip-29715-post295973/

Looking good!


I will go a step further from my recent woodwind experiences and add that even cutting to length is dicey. There is a bunch of science behind using bore diameter, wall thickness, tube length and hole placement to determine pitch, but the reality is that just gets you close. If you want tuning dead on, you have to start a little long and carefully shorten checking bell tone on a tuner each time you take a little off.

This is true for the chanter (the melody pipe with the finger-holes), and may be troublesome when it comes time to make the chanter reed (double-reed, somewhat similar to an oboe reed). The interval between the bottom note and the key-note (one finger lifted) is the potential problem area; on this instrument (as on most european pipes other than the Scottish) the bell note is only a half-tone below (for the non-musically inclined here, that's the difference in sound between one black key and an adjacent white key on the piano keyboard).

On the other side, if that interval is OK (or within range of adjustment by enlarging the first finger hole if flat), then the other notes would be adjusted relative to the key note, regardless of it's actual pitch (standard pitch comes from orchestral instruments, and many folk wind instruments, including many bagpipes, are not standard pitch).

The drones, of course, are tuneable of themselves, so no problems there.

Scottish highland pipes are now standardised in pitch so they can play with military bands, but this was not the case before the Scottish regiments were created. Irish "Concert Pitch" ( concert key of "D") Uilleann pipes are also made to standard pitch (or as near as practical) so they, too, can play with other standard fixed-pitch instruments; the original low-pitch versions were reputed originally to have been made by boring the long chanter by using a French army triangular bayonet, which gave a narrow bore and a low, soft sound, around "C" natural or lower.

Since, for a long while, it was "agin' the law" to have parties in Ireland, a very quiet bagpipe like that was most welcome as when played inside it could not be heard outside in the road; of course the folk still had to post a lookout for the "polis!"

Regards, John

 

[mlzettl]

John,

This is simply fascinating. I've said before that musical instrument makers have a combination of talents that amaze me. This project just reinforces that belief. I can't wait to see the finished product, and thanks for sharing this with all of us.

Matt

 

[ErnieM]

John

Wow! I almost missed this post. Truly fascinating work! I, for one, would love it if you could expand your posts and give more details of the building. Being an instrument maker myself, I'm most interested in how you got started making these instruments and where you learned how to make them.

Thanks for sharing this with us - and keep up the good work.

Ernie

 

[Ray Martin]

John,

I still think you should finish up the war pipes and come play for us at the picnic :gar-Bi

 

[reprosser]

Great post. As a GHB player, I am hoping one day to turn a set of pipes. I will be lucky to make a practice chanter, but maybe...

Looking forward to see how it all turns out.

 

[CarvedTones]

On the other side, if that interval is OK (or within range of adjustment by enlarging the first finger hole if flat), then the other notes would be adjusted relative to the key note, regardless of it's actual pitch (standard pitch comes from orchestral instruments, and many folk wind instruments, including many bagpipes, are not standard pitch).

It's funny; I sweat over the details of trying to get tuning just so and when I "talk" (mostly posting and reading on ChiffAndFipple) to whistle players the consensus among a lot of good players is it needs to be close and consistent, but does not have to be dead on. Some of them have a preference for slightly sharp. If you watch a really good player, they are rolling up and down the holes and rarely if ever stopping with the holes fully covered. They are more concerned about tone. A good player can get just about any pitch in the two octaves above bell tone, but they can't fix the tone. Still, I willl continue to sweat the details and try to get tuning spot on...

Since, for a long while, it was "agin' the law" to have parties in Ireland, a very quiet bagpipe like that was most welcome as when played inside it could not be heard outside in the road; of course the folk still had to post a lookout for the "polis!"

A stealth bagpipe? :rotflm:

I wold love to see the step by step also. It really is looking good.

 

[johnpipe108]

Bagpipe making is a little like pen making; you make a hole through a piece of wood and then turn the outside around the inside. For the following tuning piece, I used the chuck to end-bore the wood while in the square, then re-mounted between centers (60 degree head, 60 degree BB tail) and trued up the outside (at this stage it's only necessary to true up enough of one end for chucking). Re-chucked to turn down for the ferrule, and after installing the ferrule (with a little gorilla-glue), end-bored that area for the tuning bore.

I used the 60 degree BB center for all tail-end support involving turning around a central bore.

Next, this part was turned around in the chuck, and the rest turned to shape, then the mammoth-ivory chip was drilled and glued on with gorilla glue. I tried to turn down to 3/4 inch diameter, but bad cracks allowed only 5/8 in the end. Here is that step; note the use of 600 grit paper to grip on the ferrule area without marking by the chuck jaws:

I did run into one of those "gotchas;" it seems the drawing for the drone bores in the main-stock is erroneous and puts the drones too close together for comfort, the decorative mounts impinge on the adjoining pipes. The book I worked from has full-scale drawings, but no dimensions are given other than hole and bore sizes.

I will have to make a new stock a little larger to accomodate them properly, but this will also solve the ferrule-size problem. This will likely mean using a wood other than cocobolo, as I have no more large pieces of same. I will remember to drill the holes last, the existing ones are at a slightly odd angle from doing it wrong the first time.

John

 

[johnpipe108]

John

Wow! I almost missed this post. Truly fascinating work! I, for one, would love it if you could expand your posts and give more details of the building. Being an instrument maker myself, I'm most interested in how you got started making these instruments and where you learned how to make them.

Thanks for sharing this with us - and keep up the good work.

Ernie

I got started way back in 1982; I wanted a set of Irish Uilleann (pronounced "ill-en") pipes, which are all custom made and very expensive; I ordered a copy (now OOP, IIRC) of both Wilbert Garvin's The Irish Bagpipes and the Northumbrian book from Lark In The Morning music dealers. I had read an old turning book from the 1950's, written by an old English turner who told about end-boring; the biggest job he did like that was end-boring 8-foot timbers to make the housings of the "handy-talkie" hand-held 2-way radios of WWII.

I had purchased a McGraw-Edison lathe, very funky, and used that to turn up the Irish UP set; I had to make mini face-plate from a 1/8-inch pipe floor-flange, re-tap 1/2-20 to fit the lathe, and use it to make up a wood friction-chuck to end-bore the wood turned to cylinders. I had to jury-rig the setups on that primitive lathe, and it had no ball-bearing tail-center.

I had exactly seven chisels then; a Marples basic set of three (gouge, skew, parting-tool), and four Holtzapfel-style chisels I made from files; one left-hand and one right hand tool, one narrow left-hand tool and one narrow round-nose tool. Those were used to make the UP, which may be seen in this album, along with some pipe-making experiments and setups.

I really just jumped in back in those days before the internet, but a few years ago joined some of the bagpipe maker's forums (chiff, and another I forget which ... ) where I gathered a few tips. Way back, I did have a copy of Anthony Baine's Woodwind Instruments and Their History, and from equally way back a copy of his Bagpipes, published by the Pitt Rivers Museum, University of Oxford, Occasional Papers on Technology, 9, which have a good deal of interesting and inter-related info on the construction and musical theory of woodwinds.

I have been waiting to work on the NSP set since the 1970's when I first got these books.

John

 

[johnpipe108]

Re: Northumbrian bagpipe update - Stock mystery solved!

I believe I have solved the mystery of the stock drone socket siting that doesn't seem to fit. I looked at the only two photos of very old sets I have available, in Anthony Baines Bagpipes book; they both show the drones splaying outward from the central axis of the stock. This means the top of the stock would have a slight crown, and the holes drilled at a corresponding angle.

That takes a bit of skill that I don't have; I'll stick to the plan of making a slightly larger stock with parallel holes.

The Northumbrian Bagpipes book does not show, neither does it mention, that the holes must be at an angle for the drones to fit properly in the space given.

This would be kind of like having a plan for a stool, where the legs should splay outward for stability, but the plan shows vertical legs instead!

Regards, John

 

[johnpipe108]

Re: Northumbrian bagpipe update - stock fix-up!

I am going to attempt to fix up the stock:icon_thum

I have saved a goodly quantity of cocobolo dust from all the turnings, and am thinking to make up some epoxy-cocobolo "putty" and fill the holes (they are only 1-1/4 inch deep) and re-drill them at a proper angle.

I got a good idea how to do it; I found a slip of tapered wood that I cut off a couple years ago when squaring up some wood, and I can drill two holes in it to slip under the drillpress vise to give it the angle and bolt it to the drillpress table. Each hole would then go in at the proper angle; I'd crown the top first, when cleaning up the fill on the lathe.

I'm determined to make this come out right, with the original work I've put into it. I also had to line the bore of the top of the tenor drone that I made almost two years ago; I just found out that, somehow, I drilled it 9/64 inch instead of 3/32! To sleeve it, I actually drilled a 3/32 bore in a scrap and turned it down as close to 9/64 as I could, then sanded it down until it would fit snugly into the drone.

Now, since I'm going to work on keeping the stock, I have to find an old overflow pipe from a claw-foot tub, as it turns out that they are 1-3/8 inch OD, for the ferrule; else, I will attempt to roll and solder one from K&S brass, never having tried anything that sophisticated before.

I hope I find the piece of pipe first ...

regards, John