New Shop (Renovating Old Basement Space)

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drw

Donn
Corporate Member
My wife and I recently moved into a new house (the LAST move ever!). Two of the most compelling features of the house are a really nice kitchen (her requirement) and a really nice basement space for a shop (my requirement). The shop area has a lot going for it, including size (aprox 750 sqft), a 100 amp sub-panel already in place, and large french doors leading out to the yard. My plan is to add a mini-split, so I am currently in the process of studding up the perimeter walls over the reinforced concrete so that I can add insulation as well as have an easier time of adding stuff to the shop walls. (I owe a big thanks to Phil S for helping me figure out how to deal with some of specific quirks of building in a basement area. I was literally at the point of "paralysis by analysis"....every time I looked at the situation I would change my mind as to how I should tackle it...thank you Phil!).

As the work progresses, I'll probably do what Ken (KenOfCary) did for his new shop walls, T1-11 or plywood. This leads me to a couple of questions. I'll be doing the wiring myself. This could be a mistake as I am not an electrician, but I have done some small scale wiring, including adding additional circuits/breakers. What I want to do is pretty basic stuff, so I am relatively confident. Reviewing some of the recent posts on this site from those who have built shops I noticed that some chose to run wiring behind the walls while others ran wiring in conduit along the walls. Advantages/disadvantages? While I do like the cleaner look of no conduit, I can see a real advantage with not having to deal with all of the cut-outs for the switches/receptacles.

My other question has to do with the ceiling. My current idea is to simply panel the ceiling with 1/4 plywood screwed directly to the floor joist above. The joist are currently exposed with fiberglass insulation wedged between. Even with a decent dust collection system I will be creating some sawdust, which I don't want to accumulating on the fiberglass (if I don't cover the insulation, I can envision an ever present rain of dust every time a small breeze is created in the shop). Is there a better ceiling alternative that I should be considering?

I am sure I will have other questions for the group as this shop journey continues.

Donn
 

Ecr1

Chuck
Senior User
I would use 5/8 type x Sheetrock taped and finished will give you a 1 hour fire separation . Also make sure you have a smoke alarm that is linked to the rest of the house smoke alarms. I would do electrical in exposed emt. It will be easier to add or change stuff down the road.
 

Charlie

Charlie
Corporate Member
Donn,

You have been to my shop several times.

Following is my opinion on your questions.

Electrical in the walls. It is so much neater than conduit. Conduit seems to always be in the way if you want to wall mount something. Place a receptacle every 4 feet with every 3rd one 220V.

Sheet rock on walls. Most wall space ends up covered with cabinets anyway. I have never had a problem hitting studs for wall mounting anything. The surface is smoother than T-111 and doesn't collect dust, easier to clean, etc. If you ever need to modify anything it is very simple to remove and replace a section/sections of sheet rock. Much easier than removing/replacing a 4'x8' plywood panel. I have yet to accidentally bust a hole through the sheet rock.

If you have the height (about 2-3" required) and if there may be a need for future access in the ceiling area, I would use a suspended ceiling system. It provides easy access to whatever is above it. If you need to run more electrical later it can be run above the ceiling and dropped down inside the walls where required. I do not have a suspended ceiling in the shop because there is attic space, but I do have it in the storage room.

I have been in my shop about 28 years and wouldn't change anything.

Just my 2 cents.
 

drw

Donn
Corporate Member
Chuck and Charlie, thank you for taking the time to provide me with feedback, I am very appreciative. Charlie, I have been in your shop many times and it is the inspiration for what I would like to do. Thank you! Donn
 

KenOfCary

Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
I really like the T1-11 on the walls - looks good and easy to mount anything on it with a 5/8" screw. If its heavy you need to find a stud anyway, but small stuff can be hung anywhere. I've even drilled 1/4" holes in it and stuck pegboard fixtures right into the paneling.

Glad to hear you're getting back into the WW swing of things. Good luck with the shop.

I started out doing my own wiring with some help and advice from Phil. I finally decided I was just too slow so I hired a local electrician who got the rough-in done in two days and later the finish wiring in a few hours. It really was a bargain getting it done that way. Of course labor is probably more expensive in Holly Springs vs Floyd. Let me know if you need a recommendation of a good local electrician that specializes in residential out of Apex if you change your mind about doing it yourself. He did a lot in my shop in Cary for me.

I'm almost done running all the DC ductwork. Still need to move some shop cabinets from Cary now that the weather is better. We had a foot of snow last week and lost power for 4 days.

Anyway, good luck with the shop build and keep us informed. Let me know if I can help with any advice or good/bad experiences. Phil is a great resource also - isn't he? When I was getting started he spent 2 or 3 days driving all the way up here to help me out. He's a real problem solver.
 

drw

Donn
Corporate Member
Ken, great to hear from you...thank you for your input! Indeed, I have heard a lot about your shop and from what is visible in the pics you posted, it looks to be a wonderful place to work, very functional. At this point, I am enjoying work on the shop, but I am slow; so I can easily see myself getting tired of working "on" the shop and anxious to be working "in" the shop. When that point comes, I may be hiring help. One of the big challenges of working on the shop is the fact that it is full of tools, boxes, etc. Consequently, I am constantly moving stuff from one side the other to clear areas where I want to work...don't know how I'll deal with all the stuff when it comes time to do the ceiling, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

Donn
 

KenOfCary

Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
Been there, done that. The part about moving stuff around to make room to work on an area. I'll post a few more pics of the installed DC next week - probably Monday. I'm still pretty cluttered unpacking boxes with no place to put things.

Getting the subfloor put down was a real challenge early on, but I really wanted to have the cushion floor instead of raw concrete. Had to do it in thirds and then go back and paint it in thirds again.
 

tbone321

New User
Tom
I used T1-11 in my basement shop with the wiring behind the walls. I also painted the T1-11 white outside of the house with my airless sprayer prior to installing it. It was much easier that way without the killer paint cloud in the house that the sprayer creates. Since my basement has 9ft ceilings, I also put in a raised floor on 2X6's which allowed me to run dust collection and power under the floor for the TS and secondary station. It also let me easily run dust collection to the other side of the shop since my ceiling is not flat which would make it difficult to run pipe up there. The wooden floor also makes it much easier on my legs and feet. For the ceiling, I just used sheet rock like every other ceiling in the house since it is easy to open if I need to get up there for some reason and easy to repair if a piece of lumber decides to make its own opening. If you are going to put in smoke alarms as some have suggested, I would stat away from the standard smoke alarms and go with the heat detecting type. They are not affected by the dust created in the shop and finishing fumes like the ionization type detectors are. I found some on Amazon and have one in the shop above the TS and another in the (soon to be) finishing room. They are three wire alarms and tie into the rest of the alarms in the house.
 

ntboardman

New User
Nick
My wife and I recently moved into a new house (the LAST move ever!). Two of the most compelling features of the house are a really nice kitchen (her requirement) and a really nice basement space for a shop (my requirement). The shop area has a lot going for it, including size (aprox 750 sqft), a 100 amp sub-panel already in place, and large french doors leading out to the yard. My plan is to add a mini-split, so I am currently in the process of studding up the perimeter walls over the reinforced concrete so that I can add insulation as well as have an easier time of adding stuff to the shop walls. (I owe a big thanks to Phil S for helping me figure out how to deal with some of specific quirks of building in a basement area. I was literally at the point of "paralysis by analysis"....every time I looked at the situation I would change my mind as to how I should tackle it...thank you Phil!).

As the work progresses, I'll probably do what Ken (KenOfCary) did for his new shop walls, T1-11 or plywood. This leads me to a couple of questions. I'll be doing the wiring myself. This could be a mistake as I am not an electrician, but I have done some small scale wiring, including adding additional circuits/breakers. What I want to do is pretty basic stuff, so I am relatively confident. Reviewing some of the recent posts on this site from those who have built shops I noticed that some chose to run wiring behind the walls while others ran wiring in conduit along the walls. Advantages/disadvantages? While I do like the cleaner look of no conduit, I can see a real advantage with not having to deal with all of the cut-outs for the switches/receptacles.

My other question has to do with the ceiling. My current idea is to simply panel the ceiling with 1/4 plywood screwed directly to the floor joist above. The joist are currently exposed with fiberglass insulation wedged between. Even with a decent dust collection system I will be creating some sawdust, which I don't want to accumulating on the fiberglass (if I don't cover the insulation, I can envision an ever present rain of dust every time a small breeze is created in the shop). Is there a better ceiling alternative that I should be considering?

I am sure I will have other questions for the group as this shop journey continues.

Donn

Donn, are you planning on getting this permitted so you can sell it (or help your children sell it) as a finished basement? If so you'll want to talk with the county inspectors about what they want to see on either electrical choice and make sure you get the right inspections done. Sounds like you have a fun time ahead of you and look forward to seeing progress.
 

KenOfCary

Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
Donn, are you planning on getting this permitted so you can sell it (or help your children sell it) as a finished basement? If so you'll want to talk with the county inspectors about what they want to see on either electrical choice and make sure you get the right inspections done. Sounds like you have a fun time ahead of you and look forward to seeing progress.

I got permits for my basement renovation and got everything inspected. It will make my insurance company happy and makes sure I didn't do anything badly out of code. The inspector here was totally helpful - he filled out the permit request for me and once I ended up hiring electricians he knew and getting the rest hired out, he didn't give me any problems with the inspections. I highly recommend getting the proper permits and being above board with the local offices. It will save you time and trouble in the long run.

Of course, where I live is a little less laid back from some places in NC. Jeremy has run into minor problems with inspectors on his basement shop. You get to decide how to handle it and don't need to publicize what you decide here.

Good luck and continue to post progress pics here. I owe the forum some on my almost finished DC system.
 

Jeremy Scuteri

Moderator
Jeremy
I didn't run into any inspector issues with electrical, but they wouldn't let me put a mini-split in because I had some exposed concrete walls.
 

drw

Donn
Corporate Member
Thanks guys for your continuing input. I do plan to get a building permit, in fact, I have already been to the permitting office and spoke with a couple of inspectors. My current plan is to do some of the work myself (framing, electric, insulation, and drop ceiling). I will have plumbing and HVAC done by professionals. In another week or two I will complete framing out the shop, at that point I will have my first inspection. I am worried about the whole inspection process, but in the long run I know it is the right thing to do (Nick, you are right...I want the kids to be able to sell the house and count the shop as a finished room).

I'll keep you posted as the project moves forward.
 

williv

New User
will
I used exposed EMT when I built my shop a couple years ago and glad I did because I've already had to reroute a couple things. I also wanted the industrial look because, after all, it is a work shop. The walls are a mix of t-111 and plywood strips so attaching the conduit was easy. Bending it was another matter. I suck at that, but learned a few things in the process, the main one being to buy some extra to practice with. Also, working with the Raleigh inspectors was great. Every single one was very professional and offered advice if asked.

-Will
 

Jeremy Scuteri

Moderator
Jeremy
Concrete walls don't meet some energy efficiency regulation. This makes the space "unfinished". HVAC is not allowed in unfinished spaces. That is my understanding from talking with the development office at least. At one point I was doing some research and it seemed like it should be allowed if 80% of the walls are insulated or underground. I might try and revisit this topic with the development office this summer.
 

JimD

Jim
Senior User
I moved to SC in 1999 and am in my second shop since then. I had to build both. The first was in a previously unfinished basement of a house we had built to get a walk-out basement I could use for that purpose. It has 9 foot poured concrete walls which provided a bit over 8'6" once the slab was poured. The walls of that shop and my current one are 7/16 OSB given a skim coat of drywall compound and painted white. The advantage is the walls are finished quicker than if you use drywall, the materials were a bit less, and the walls are sturdier with the ability to hang stuff anywhere. To a casual observer, they do not look different form drywall. The skim coat of drywall compound makes the walls much smoother and easier to paint. You would not save time skipping it because the painting will be so much harder.

The ceiling was 5/8 drywall but I didn't tape the seams, I used 1x4 or smaller battens over the seams. Once that was handy because I could easily take down a sheet. I doubt it meets code. With finished space above I think it really should be taped. The battens were quicker, however, and I thought they looked fine. I used 3/4 in one direction and 1/2 in the other. If you could get by with one coat of mud, it could still be an idea.

I only use 110V tools, I believe they are fully sufficient. I rip 3.5 inches on my table saw(in hardwood) when I need to. I just have to be sure my blade is a ripping blade and reasonably clean and sharp. I think 20A outlets are important, however. I have one 20A circuit dedicated to tools with outlets every 4 feet throughout my 14x24 shop garage. My previous basement shop garage was similar. I have a separate 15A lighting circuit with a few outlets off it (lights use very little amperage). This works for me but most consider it way too little. The previous shop I wired from the electrical box which was in an adjacent utility room. The current garage I had the electricians run a lighting circuit to and rough wire and run me a 12 gauge line with one outlet. I added the other outlets. That let me also have the sheetrock crew finish tape the ceiling drywall. In my basement shop I hung the drywall too. Rough wiring takes little time but you need a drill that can go through framing quickly. I used Irwin speedbore bits and the only drill I had that would provide the torque was my Ryobi cordless drills on low speed. That worked fine but I was surprised my old 1/2 inch Sears was not working. Long way of saying you might spend a minute thinking about tools. A spade bit will work but I had to go through as many as 5 side by side 2x4s and didn't want to have to lean on the drill to get through. If yours is more typical and easier single studs, tooling is less critical.

If we go back one more house I wired a garage I used as a shop part time in conduit. I found that to be much more difficult. I didn't put up stud walls, however, so I didn't have much choice.

I do not really like working with 12 gauge wires - which you have to use for 20A circuits. They are enough stiffer than 14 gauge to be honestly somewhat painful at this point in my life. But many things are a little painful at this point.

I've also done two sets of additions on the current house. The first included adding the shop garage but also about 600ft2 of finished space. For the finished space, I had the electricians do the rough in so the drywall work could be done quicker since they didn't have to wait for me. I did the finish which included hooking up a heat pump on the first one. It's all pretty easy but three way switches can be confusing the first time (or subsequently if you don't do them often enough).

Last comment, you might want to think about a tool circuit that you use to trigger dust collection. You plug the tool into the circuit but the other end goes to an trigger switch for the dust collector. It can save wires on the floor. I didn't do it but kind of wish I did now.
 
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ntboardman

New User
Nick
Thanks guys for your continuing input. I do plan to get a building permit, in fact, I have already been to the permitting office and spoke with a couple of inspectors. My current plan is to do some of the work myself (framing, electric, insulation, and drop ceiling). I will have plumbing and HVAC done by professionals. In another week or two I will complete framing out the shop, at that point I will have my first inspection. I am worried about the whole inspection process, but in the long run I know it is the right thing to do (Nick, you are right...I want the kids to be able to sell the house and count the shop as a finished room).

I'll keep you posted as the project moves forward.

In my experience, unless you are in a county with a major metro area, a lot of the inspectors are very nice and super helpful. If you don't feel comfortable, its worth the extra "inspection" fee to have them come out and direct specifically what they are going to look for. They have no problem with you taking notes, and answering all the why questions you may have. In my experience, its much better to ask them before any of the work is done so you don't have to pull anything out. When i added the subpanel to my basement, i had no idea the process, so if you have questions about the process, feel free to PM me!
 

KenOfCary

Ken
Staff member
Corporate Member
Inspectors can be nice or a PITA. Usually if you listen to them and just agree to fix anything they mention - even go so far as to ask them how they would like to see things done, you won't have any problems with them. And when I say fix I mean if they suggest that it is OK but there might be a better way - go for the better way even if it adds a bit of expense. Keeping them happy (not just satisfied) will make your life better.

That's my approach anyway. YMMV.

Up here they didn't inspect the framing until the electrical rough-in was done. Then a final when the finished electrical was installed. Only 2 inspections.
 
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Gotcha6

Dennis
Staff member
Corporate Member
+1 on that philosophy. Remember, Building Codes are minimum standards. You aren't allowed to build it any sorrier than that......
 
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