Measurements and Measuring

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drw

Donn
Corporate Member
Comments made in a recent post got me to thinking about the devices I use to measure. While I do not currently own any expensive measuring devices, other than a couple of Woodpecker rules, I am beginning to think I need to invest in something with more precision than what I currently use. I have two measuring tapes, which I have been using interchangeably (whichever one I find first), after comparing the two, they differ by a little over 1/16"!:icon_scra I also compared a square I got from a local big box store with a small Woodpecker tee-square, it was off by well over 1/16"! I suppose I was too naive or trusting, but I just assumed that even on a cheaply made device an inch would be an inch! Over the years, I have made some nice stuff, but seldom did things fit perfectly on the first attempt....perhaps I have discovered part of the problem! I now know what I want from Santa!
 

Willemjm

Willem
Corporate Member
I am a precision freak, but st the end of the day wood is kind of a living thing. It moves and changes dimensions all the time.

It’s hard to find a large dimension square that is actually square these days, but if you take time they can be made square.
 

Graywolf

Board of Directors, President
Richard
Staff member
Corporate Member
What I have found is this, pick one measuring device to use it period. It dose not mater if it is accurate in relationship with anything else. Your measuring devices inch is just that. It dose not matter if it's off from another device, pick it, trust it and your work will be accurate to that measuring device. Having a device that is accurate to X number of decibel points in relationship to a standard that will move with moisture and temperature is the same as fighting windmills. Pick a tape, or a ruler and use it, not two rulers in a project. If you do that and trust it then your work will always be accurate, your stress levels will fall, and you will enjoy your hobby much more.
 

ErnieM

Ernie
Corporate Member
Having a device that is accurate to X number of decibel points in relationship to a standard that will move with moisture and temperature is the same as fighting windmills.

It may be fighting windmills, but in some cases, the fight is necessary. In my harpsichord work, a part that is .002" too small or too big may be enough to cause a failure. Granted, this is not a common occurrence, even in instrument making, but it sometimes has to be dealt with. Let's say a certain part should be 2" long. If the wood shrinks in the winter it may end up 1.997" long, making it three thousandths too short. However, if I made that part 1.997" to begin with, shrinkage may cause it to end up 1.993" short in the winter. Believe me when I tell you that .007" is a huge, and possibly fatal, error in a harpsichord. As a result, in the almost 40 years I've been building these instruments, I've become fanatical about exact measurements. I can't stop the wood from moving, but getting the measurement as accurate as possible during construction allows me to keep the parts as close to their designed measurements when Mother Nature has her say.

This fanaticism in measurement is a trait that every good harpsichord builder shares. Unfortunately, it is often a curse. I find myself agonizing over exact measurements in places where it doesn't matter at all if a part is slightly too big or too small. This is absurd, not to mention a total waste of time. I know this, and yet this need for extreme accuracy is so ingrained that I'm constantly fighting with myself to avoid this lunacy. I usually lose the fight.
 

Mike Davis

Mike
Corporate Member
Ok, so sometimes a part HAS to be a certain size. Even exact to .0001 and that can be achieved when needed. But most of the time I can build a box and never pick up a ruler, because measurements don’t matter on that box. It may need to fit in a space, so use a story stick to mark the size of that space, measuring done. You may need equal length parts or equal width parts, so set a stop block and cut from that stop block. Parts are more accurate than you can measure and no numbers need apply.

Case in point; I built this jewelry box with a vague idea what size I wanted, it should feel good in the hands and hold rings and bracelets. I cut the top with some stop blocks, I have no idea to this day what any measurement is on this box nor any of its parts. Then I cut sides on same stop blocks to fit the top. So on and so on. Each part cut to fit the one before it using the same stop blocks and never any measurement with ruler, dividers, micrometer, dial gauge, or any such standard. The parts fit so closely you have to look closely for a seam on the outside of the box.

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Graywolf

Board of Directors, President
Richard
Staff member
Corporate Member
Ernie you do beautiful work and the agony in which you speak, I feel for you. My point was that if you use one instrument to measure as your own standard for your project then the accuracy that you seek is in how you use it and how you layout your work. It doesn't matter if your measuring instrument is accurate to some arbitrary standard or is the same as someone else's measuring instrument. The earlier post here by Donn was he used two tape measures interchangeably, that is a recipe for failure any day of the week. In my day to day work I use a thirty foot tape measure. That is the only measuring instrument I allow on the project, accuracy is all in how it used not just the instrument.
 

ErnieM

Ernie
Corporate Member
Ernie you do beautiful work and the agony in which you speak, I feel for you. My point was that if you use one instrument to measure as your own standard for your project then the accuracy that you seek is in how you use it and how you layout your work. It doesn't matter if your measuring instrument is accurate to some arbitrary standard or is the same as someone else's measuring instrument. The earlier post here by Donn was he used two tape measures interchangeably, that is a recipe for failure any day of the week. In my day to day work I use a thirty foot tape measure. That is the only measuring instrument I allow on the project, accuracy is all in how it used not just the instrument.

Generally speaking, I agree with you totally - a single ruler should be used for an entire project. This will, or should, make every assembly accurate relative to every other assembly in the project. In most cases, that's fine. In some cases, it's not fine enough. There are times when it's necessary to be accurate to a standard. For example, when two or more people, working in different locations, are making assemblies that will ultimately be united in a single piece of work. If their respective rulers aren't truly identical, misalignment can, and will, occur.

ln my book on harpsichord building, I give measurements in both metric and Imperial, although I use neither. I've found that the smaller an assembly is, the greater the need for accuracy. So, whenever possible, I use a micrometer and/or a digital caliper that reads in the thousandths. That said, the measuring device is only one part of the accuracy problem. Regardless of what measuring device you use, if you're marking your wood with a crayon you cannot expect any consistent level of accuracy. That's why folks who make dovetail joints using a knife instead of a pencil to mark their wood.

Then there is the problem of your machinery. Rip a 3" wide slice off of a piece of wood using your tablesaw. If you measure, using a digital caliper, in various places on your 3" slice, most of us will find some variation in the width of the board. In most cases, this won't matter - in some, it might. This can be caused by inherent inaccuracy in the machine, and/or user error. However, for most of us, this is the best we can do. It's why we use a tablesaw instead of a chain saw to dimension our wood. It's the best we can do.

These are some of the things that keep me up at night. It becomes an unhealthy obsession that, after all these years, I struggle with. Help me, please!:BangHead:
 

Graywolf

Board of Directors, President
Richard
Staff member
Corporate Member
Ernie, I have a friend, she's a physiologist and I think we can come up with a 12 step program for this. It may be painful, the mantra would be give me accuracy now instead of serenity now.:gar-Bi
 

patlaw

Mike
Corporate Member
These are some of the things that keep me up at night. It becomes an unhealthy obsession that, after all these years, I struggle with. Help me, please!:BangHead:
That obsession is a good and healthy one. The way to get rid of the stress is to teach it to others. I'd LOVE to learn 1% of what you know about working with wood.
 

Tom from Clayton

tom
Corporate Member
Metrologists throughout the world anguish over this issue daily. Things like ISO 9000, 17025 and FDA regs and the like are developed.
 

ErnieM

Ernie
Corporate Member
Ernie, I have a friend, she's a physiologist and I think we can come up with a 12 step program for this. It may be painful, the mantra would be give me accuracy now instead of serenity now.:gar-Bi

Wait a second...how big is each step? How long is each step? How do I know her definition of a "step" is the same as mine? Oh, the insanity!!! :gar-La;
 

Gofor

Mark
Corporate Member
Comments made in a recent post got me to thinking about the devices I use to measure. While I do not currently own any expensive measuring devices, other than a couple of Woodpecker rules, I am beginning to think I need to invest in something with more precision than what I currently use. I have two measuring tapes, which I have been using interchangeably (whichever one I find first), after comparing the two, they differ by a little over 1/16"!:icon_scra I also compared a square I got from a local big box store with a small Woodpecker tee-square, it was off by well over 1/16"! I suppose I was too naive or trusting, but I just assumed that even on a cheaply made device an inch would be an inch! Over the years, I have made some nice stuff, but seldom did things fit perfectly on the first attempt....perhaps I have discovered part of the problem! I now know what I want from Santa!

Only two tape measures??:elvis: I have at least a half dozen, and I don't think any of them agree along the full length. Some agree at the 3' mark but not at the 5 or 6, others agree at 20' but not at 4 or 10 etc. Also have about a half-dozen combination squares of varying sizes. I rarely use them as squares, because they aren't. Mainly I use them as depth/width indicators, especially for things like tenons, mortises, etc.

Having started early in life (age 19) as a machinist in a factory where I had to maintain a tolerance on some parts to a couple ten thousandths inch, and then into aircraft structural maintenance, exact measuring was in my blood. Found out that was somewhat a fool's errand when I got into finer woodworking in my late 50's. Like Mike, I use somewhat of a story stick method, using the same device to mark repetitive measurements.

I do have some precision scales, squares, straight edges, etc. but mainly use those to calibrate or verify my daily user tools. Yes, they are necessary, but limited in use to maintain their integrity.

Sorry, Ernie. Can't help with your problem. Maintaining perfect measurements in an imperfect medium has to be most challenging!

Go.
 

ErnieM

Ernie
Corporate Member
Sorry, Ernie. Can't help with your problem. Maintaining perfect measurements in an imperfect medium has to be most challenging!

Go.

Go - No one can help me with my problem as it's a problem without a solution. l think you've said it best: " Maintaining perfect measurements in an imperfect medium has to be most challenging!"
 

Rick M

New User
Rick
I broke down and invested in quality American made squares which I use primarily to setup machines and check for square. I also have some decent calipers that I use mostly as a depth gauge and marking gauge. I also have some American made rules that I love. Never once have I looked back and regretted the purchases but I regret all the cheap tools that took my money and didn't deliver.
 

Willemjm

Willem
Corporate Member
I am curious, do you all work in inches? I do, but I grew up overseas with the metric system, the fractions kills me!!. I am always wondering if it is the fact that more than half my life I worked in millimeters and just can get used to the imperial system?
 

Phil S

Phil Soper
Staff member
Corporate Member
I am curious, do you all work in inches? I do, but I grew up overseas with the metric system, the fractions kills me!!. I am always wondering if it is the fact that more than half my life I worked in millimeters and just can get used to the imperial system?
At work I must work in the imperial system however i try to stay away from feet and inches. I use just inches for measurements less than 25 feet. I hate always having to check is that 5 feet 1 inch or 51 inches. At home in my own shop I use metric. It is so much easier.
 

Willemjm

Willem
Corporate Member
At work I must work in the imperial system however i try to stay away from feet and inches. I use just inches for measurements less than 25 feet. I hate always having to check is that 5 feet 1 inch or 51 inches. At home in my own shop I use metric. It is so much easier.

LOL, yep there you have it. 5 Feet 1 inch gives you 61, you cut this piece 10 inches too short. I work imperial, because all the materials, specifications for cabinets, sheet sizes etc., are imperial, but have to confess my laptop is always up and running in the shop to make sure I figure the numbers and fractions right. Where I grew up and went to school, we worked lumber in meters cubed and we did not know about story sticks.
 
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